Thread: It's getting really tough out there. A song of hate to American Pickers

Originally Posted by clear out

..... I also picked up a new 51 in a NY back in ‘83.
Things are a little scarcer now I believe.....

A slight understatement, eh Henry??

While it would be nice to pick up a good set at a good price ($0 is pretty acceptable, but I'm a bit old & slow to try catching one being thrown out a window!), does the average bloke have the need or the room for a tool whose star has been greatly dimmed by good-quality TCT blades & table saws? Nowadays I find my shooting needs adequately filled by a LA jack on a home-made board, i.e., it's not something I use daily any more. Probably explains why the lovely hefty blade I acquired with the intention of making myself a u-beaut shooting plane has been languishing in a drawer for several years, waiting patiently for a body to inhabit.....

Cheers,

I have a Stanley #51/52, as many here are aware, since I have referred to it and posted pictures over the years ...



This was the subjected of a full restoration, described here: Restoring a Stanley #51/52

The frog on mine, too, was broken and brazed together. The plane required some work before it performed well and reliably, which it now does. Nevertheless, the frog design on the original Stanley #51 is very poor, which is why so many suffer this way.

Their are no available replacement frogs on this planet. The closest to the #51 frog is that from a #3. Seen below, the full bedding of the #3 alongside the miniscule bedding of the #51. (The mind boggles, really, and one want to ask why!?) ...



When the time came, I purchased a LN #51, which was a copy of the Stanley - with the exception that they got the frog right this time! The frog comes from the #5 1/2 plane.



There is a comparison of the Stanley and LN #51s here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html

I was in love ... deep love .. with this LN for a few years. I still love it for its looks and performance. Then along came the Veritas Shooting Plane, which was based on the #51 footprint, but a bevel up design. I prefer the style of the Stanley/LN for looks, but the Veritas leaves both for dust by way of edge longevity. This is not simply due to the superior PM-V11 steel, but to the BU orientation. The lower cutting angle also leaves a better surface.

This is described in full, in a comparison of the planes: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html



In the end, unless one wants a Stanley #51 as a collector piece, either the LN or Veritas planes are far better users. The #52 shooting or chuting board, on the other hand, remain sublime. Get one if you can. The next best to this promises to be the new Veritas shooting fence along with their track. Incidentally, Veritas are selling a ready made shooting board with these components.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I saw a Stanley 51/52 combo for sale at an Antique store in regional NSW over the weekend.
It was was in little used condition, no obvious cracks and looked complete with hold down.
Hiweveepr the $2000 sticker price was a bit steep for me.

You guys are high rollers! I think I spent about $200 building an skew infill purpleheart shooter!

Just kidding. The drive up in the market in the US isn't collectors. Collectors have always paid a lot for rare planes, and always completely ignored planes that we'd consider nice (but with too much wear or evidence of any refinishing).

The type of thing you'd find a collector buy would be an early 1900s bailey plane of any type, but unused and clean in an original box, or a very little used sweetheart era plane with fresh clean decals and nothing else wrong with it.

The users have come along wanting to get in on the action, reading pages like Patrick Leach's page, looking for anything that he's said is rare (51s) or great in his opinion (#112s). And ebay has eliminated most deals on the ground here in the states to. Not just ebay, but the invention of the iphone and the ability to check a price anywhere any time has allowed booth pickers here to go through any booth antique shop or any flea market and eliminate anything valuable before most of the rest of us will ever see it.

As you found out, there are times that a know-it-all takes all of the money out of the house at the auction itself (which is where most people used to start with the cheap planes, before they went various routes out to retail or dealers), but that's been going on for a while, too. The range that the know-it-alls tend to operate in, though, has narrowed in both directions.

In 1995, before ebay really had any effect, I went to a refurb tool sale held in a barn in a rural area where I lived. It had been held there for a long time and was well-established. I was building model airplanes (big ones) at the time and wanted a sheet sander and a better drill than I had. Many of the tools there got bid up higher than new sale cost at (the then new) a big box store, and I ended up with a refurbished half-sheet sander for about $5 less than a new one, I felt like I had to get something. I didn't see any decent drill sell for anything other than more than new cost. The auctioneer did a good job lathering up the group of folks there (big crowd) by overstating the actual typical sales price of all of the items, especially the industrial tools, and there was a lot of white hair in the audience (do not get in the way of the white hair crowd when they're buying).

But, anyway, the thing that's disappeared is the common and sort-of-rare user tools that users used to be able to get. And the booth tool dealers now all have prices at or above ebay if they have anything that would sell on ebay. The few operating still get most of their stuff from estate auctions or from being referred to spouses of recently deceased tool hoarders (coworker's grandfather had 1600 planes when he died, most of them not worth anything. About half of his planes sold at auction until the buyers ran out, and instead of selling them for a dollar or two, they held them back and they went to a dealer).

I used to gripe about the "collectors", but George Wilson pointed out to me at one time that they generally are only collecting fine items, and they're the biggest reason we even have any older fine items to look at.

Hi D.W. what's a "booth dealer"? It's not a term that I'm familiar with here in New Zealand
Thanks, Paul

As I recall, David, you purchased the Veritas #51 before building your shooting plane, although you sold it to a neighbour before you had the opportunity to make a comparison. Nevertheless, you have appreciated the worth of a dedicated shooter ....

While not necessary for building furniture (is any tool?), it is a nice addition if one can justify the entry fee.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by paul.cleary

Hi D.W. what's a "booth dealer"? It's not a term that I'm familiar with here in New Zealand
Thanks, Paul

Hi, paul - it's usually an old space (empty retail, or perhaps an old factory) that's split up into booths. Anyone who wants to rent a booth for a monthly fee can sell anything they want in it, and their tags have a number for their booth. That way, the booth renter can sell stuff without actually being there.

They come in any size around here, some of the shops have 20 booths, and some are large and have a few hundred. since there's no restriction on the booths other than old goods, they can have all kinds of stuff. The obvious draw for us is that some of those booths are full of old tools (and some just outright junk, like carving knife sets of the early stainless steel with deer antlers).

15 years ago, you could go through those malls and find tools. You still can sometimes, but professional pickers usually loot the booths of anything that can be sold on ebay.

I remember todd hughes (a picker here in the states) talking about getting an iphone when they first came out (todd was not a big spender, that was an odd purchase) and declaring that it was now possible for anyone to be an expert at an auction or flea market or booth dealer /antique mall because if you had a clue what an item was, you could just look up the recent sales price on ebay.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

As I recall, David, you purchased the Veritas #51 before building your shooting plane, although you sold it to a neighbour before you had the opportunity to make a comparison. Nevertheless, you have appreciated the worth of a dedicated shooter ....

While not necessary for building furniture (is any tool?), it is a nice addition if one can justify the entry fee.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think the LV shooter is a dandy. I say this not arrogantly, but mine works better. I've gotten very used to it, and it's a smooth killer. On the wood we have here, my iron holds an edge about as long as V11. Maybe in more difficult wood the two would be separated (I'm sure the V11 is more wear resistant, but I left my iron hard, knowing that if it was in need of more temper, I could give it more).

I'm building guitars now, so talk about an unnecessary tool!!

I have one long cabinet yet to build for my kitchen, not a main cabinet - I'll get to use it again then, and then I'm afraid it'll go into disuse until I'm tired of building planes and guitars. (of course, I built the shooting plane more just to build the plane (and see if I could do it) than out of need. The LV plane is not that expensive here in the states, and to put it lightly, it's a far better option than any vintage shooter.