Thread: Shoulder plane vs rabbeting block plane...etc

I have only used one brand of shoulder plane (HNT Gordon) apart from a home made one, which I gave away to a very close relative and it now resides in storage somewhere in Slovakia , so it is difficult for me to make comparisons. I don't use them often but when I have done I have been extremely thankful I had them. I started out with a 1" plane and indeed that was the size of the home made plane too. When I had the opportunity I bought the other three planes in the HNT Gordon range albeit second hand. The 1" model for me was a good choice as it was the one I used most.

You can see them in this thread.

What is Dead Finish ?

Post #19

It is also true to say that I have not necessarily used them for their primary intended purpose: It doesn't matter. They were used. The HNT Gs have quite a bit of weight to them compared to old wood-only shoulder planes I have (but have never used) which are likely made of Beech: Probably twice the weight. I don't know what typical metal planes weigh.

Regards
Paul

Luke, that all makes sense to me, I'd be using a regular rebate or high-angle plane in those circumstances too. A SP may do an excellent job taking wisps off long-grain, if it's straight & clean, or it may tear out at any setting, on cranky grain. You could lift the bevel angle on the blade to improve matters, but that detracts from its ability to trim cross-grain. In addition, the usual fine mouth doesn't suit setting for a heavy cut when you want to remove a fair amount of material quickly (having an adjustable mouth, as most 'modern' types do takes care of that problem). So I'd probably use my 78 in the situations you dscribe. I know it's not a very refined tool, but with a sharp blade it does a pretty good job on most of the more reasonable cabinet woods.

In fact, Adam, it's a plane you might want to keep an eye out for. I see it's not on your list, but they are a useful & quite versatile gadget - I use mine a lot. It's great for finessing tenon cheeks, for example. (I know some like to use router planes for this job, but it's a cumbersome set-up, & slower, with the narrow blades. With a little practice, you can learn to do an accurate job very quickly with a 78) A 78 or 078 or the various other clone equivalents can often be found for very little, usually minus their fence & depth stop, unfortunately, but those can be made or purchased if required.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

The HNT Gs have quite a bit of weight to them compared to old wood-only shoulder planes I have (but have never used) which are likely made of Beech: Probably twice the weight. I don't know what typical metal planes weigh....

Quite a bit more, Paul! I suspect the Beech planes you refer to are actually rebate planes rather than 'shoulder' planes & much more suited to planing along the grain than across it.

Here are some comparisons for you.
Group shot.jpg

The big one on the left weighs a few grams shy of 1.7Kg, which is what the large Veritas weighs in at (3.75 lb). The 3/4" "medium" in the centre is just a couple of grams short of 1kg, and the baby 1/2" is a 'mere' 350g, which is still a significant 40% heavier than the HNT Gordon 1/2" beside it, which comes in at a trifling 247g. This one has ringed Gidgee infill, and the brass channel sole, so would be at the top of the range for a woodie that size.

As always, you see the divergence of opinions. Derek prefers his 'medium' plane while Rob & I go for the big brutes. I'll not deny my 3/4" can be handy in certain situations, and as Derek says, gives better visibility when visibility is an issue. He's got a point too, in that you rarely need to trim a tenon shoulder wider than 20mm, so the extra width isn't the point, it's the weight that I like. Just differences in what we do & how we like to work....

The 'baby' is there mainly because of the fun & challenge I had making it. So far, the most use it's had was in trimming the edges of the stuffing for the last couple of infill planes I made. While it was perfect for that job, I don't plan on making too many more infill planes in this life, so it's in some danger of becoming redundant. Though like a few other tools I have, as soon as I decide to part with it, some job will come along where it'll be indispensable. Lucky for it, it takes up very little space....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Um, what do you want to make?

Sorry chief,

I should have thought. Listing tools without explaining future need is pretty pointless.

Currently I'm finishing off my tool cupboard for the garage. This has been my excuse to experiment with as many different joints as possible.

After this comes the list from SHMBO and my little girls.

The kids have requested jewelry boxes but with a twist. They want them for holding gems and semi precious stones which they collect. Rough sketch of what they asked for is below, although the both want the top to be hinged so it can hold larger items like geodes.

I'm unsure of the joinery to use but i was thinking of full blind DT for the carcass. I'm probably being foolishly ambitious but why not. The mitre on the DT is part of why this question was asked.

The mrs likes the cabrolet table shown in the "woodworking masterclass" season 1 which is now on YT. There is a similar one done by Bob Rosaieski (also YT) which looks awesome but involves more mortice and tenons.

I know no plane will cover both jobs perfectly but if it does an acceptable job that's good enough until i add further tools as the need arises.

I hope this explains the immediate plans a little clearer. h8T5CFaWJRdD4f23UPthbMd5.jpg

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Adam, I checked the videos you referred to, & for those tables, I wouldn't be thinking of any more planes, what you have now (your list):
No 7 jointer
No 5 1/2 LA Jack
No 4 1/2 smoother
LA Block
Router plane
No 13-050 combination plane
.....is more than enough to make either table - I made my first couple like those with only two planes, a 5 and a block plane.

Perhaps I would think about spokeshaves (you'd need both round-bottomed & flat), but you can get by much better with a couple of rasps when shaping cabriole legs. Spokeshaves can be a liability when trying to deal with the constant grain changes of cabriole legs - stumpy ones like these would have been particularly difficult to spokeshave: Table w_nut.jpg

So p'raps you should put a decent rasp or two on the wish-list, & while you're at it, maybe a good bowsaw to cut out the initial shapes of the legs...

The tenons faces ('cheeks') for the aprons can be finessed with your router, and the shoulders with a chisel. Make sure you cut the mortises in the legs before you turn them into baby goat legs - it's far easier to do when all is 4-square (damhik! ).

But yeah, I can see a shoulder plane being handy for multiple sets of full-blind dovetails.

Funny how the wheel turns, back when I started serious w'working everyone was doing through d'tails, they wanted all that work to be displayed for all to see! Now full-blinds seem to be all the rage. They are a nice touch & a great challenge, and certainly fit well with projects like your daughters' gem boxes...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Adam, I checked the videos you referred to, & for those tables, I wouldn't be thinking of any more planes, what you have now (your list):
No 7 jointer
No 5 1/2 LA Jack
No 4 1/2 smoother
LA Block
Router plane
No 13-050 combination plane
.....is more than enough to make either table - I made my first couple like those with only two planes, a 5 and a block plane.

Perhaps I would think about spokeshaves (you'd need both round-bottomed & flat), but you can get by much better with a couple of rasps when shaping cabriole legs. Spokeshaves can be a liability when trying to deal with the constant grain changes of cabriole legs - stumpy ones like these would have been particularly difficult to spokeshave: Table w_nut.jpg

So p'raps you should put a decent rasp or two on the wish-list, & while you're at it, maybe a good bowsaw to cut out the initial shapes of the legs...

The tenons faces ('cheeks') for the aprons can be finessed with your router, and the shoulders with a chisel. Make sure you cut the mortises in the legs before you turn them into baby goat legs - it's far easier to do when all is 4-square (damhik! ).

But yeah, I can see a shoulder plane being handy for multiple sets of full-blind dovetails.

Funny how the wheel turns, back when I started serious w'working everyone was doing through d'tails, they wanted all that work to be displayed for all to see! Now full-blinds seem to be all the rage. They are a nice touch & a great challenge, and certainly fit well with projects like your daughters' gem boxes...

Cheers,

Thanks ian.

I was luckily able to get a gramercy bow saw kit a few months ago that one of the forum members had going spare. Once the tool cupboard is finished(-ish) I'll try and build the frame.

In terms of spokeshaves i have the veritas LA shave which is meant to function reasonably well as both a flat and curved bottom. Hopefully this will be enough but I'll heed your warning and go very carefully.

That's one beautiful table you posted. What timber did you use?

Regards,

Adam

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Originally Posted by taz01

.....I was luckily able to get a gramercy bow saw kit a few months ago......
......In terms of spokeshaves i have the veritas LA shave which is meant to function reasonably well as both a flat and curved bottom.....

Sounds like you are well prepared, Adam. When you make the frame, choose something that's tough without being too dense, a light, but reasonably stiff frame is the go, imo. My favourite wood for bowsaw frames is the Wattle that grows in our backyard. It's one of the 'Hickory" wattle group & really tough, but there are plenty of other choices. I would recommend you spend a bit of rxtra ime to make a sliding toggle, something like this:
10 inch saw.jpg

It's a bit of extra fuss but it makes tensioning & un-tensioning so much easier than a simple stick through the string. There's a bit of a learning curve with bowsaws, but they are worth persevering with 'til you get the hang of driving them. I struggled a bit at first, but now I wouldn't be without one..

I haven't used the Veritas LA shave - haven't even held one in my hand, but have used the old wooden-bodied shaves a fair bit in the past. They can follow gentle inside curves better than the typical metal flat-bottoms, so if the Veritas version has similar capabilities, as claimed, you should be ok with the curves on a full-sized leg. The 'low angle' blades can tear out pretty severely if you take heavy cuts against rising grain, but you'll figure that out during he initial shaping. A couple of well-tuned scrapers can be a boon for final clean-up, depending on the wood you choose...

Originally Posted by taz01

...... What timber did you use?....

That table is Black Walnut (Juglans nigra). It's up there with the nicest of cabinet woods to work with, but I've had Blackwood that was just as nice and Blackwood takes at least as good a finish. Mind you, I've also had some BW that was an absolute beast to work, hard, splintery, & grain all over the shop - hand-chopped mortises came out looking more like bomb craters! But living in the home of the stuff, I would hope you can find decent BW if you wanted it...

Cheers,

Some stats for information. I weighed my shoulder planes (HNT Gordon) today as follows:

1/2" 229g
3/4" 435g
1" 636g
1 1/4" 934g

The timber is Red lancewood except for the 1", which is Gidgee.

Regards
Paul

Does the hnt Gordon plane have an adjustable mouth?

I'm guessing that as i would be using it for multiple purposes I'd need it to be flexible.

I could be wrong on that statement so please correct me if that's the case.

I was starting to look towards a luban 92 as i don't think it's worth me splashing out for veritas/LN prices if its not going to be used that often. Has anyone used that one?

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I reviewed the Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane in 2006, comparing it with the HNT Gordon 3/4" and the Stanley #92 (all 3/4" widths).

This is the break down of the HNT Gordon ...

The HNT Gordon is fairly straightforward as well. Tap the brass abutment with a mallet, which loosens the wedge … remove the wedge and blade. The setting for the side of the plane is lost, however this is not a big deal to restore.
HNT Gordon apart

No adjustable mouth or adjuster, etc. Use a mallet.

Review here: The Veritas (Lee Valley) Medium Shoulder Plane

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek.

That's a great review of the veritas. Has your thoughts on it changed since when you did the article?

Regards.

Adam

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Hi Adam

If anything, my appreciation of the Small and Medium Shoulder Planes has increased. They both get a lot of use, as I mentioned earlier, largely for rebates - not only for case work, but also for rebates in drawers, where I fit bottoms into slips. This is the Small, below ...



I love HNT Gordon planes (I have a bunch of these planes), but I sold my shoulder plane about a year after this review, simply because it was not getting used. It is an excellent shoulder plane, and Terry is an artist, but it was superfluous.

Regards from Perth

Derek