Thread: CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

And IIRC it was a human error in the first place that let the train go out of control....

Official response:

"The driver, Peter Frick, was sacked but has since reached a settlement with the company after taking his case to the Fair Work Commission.
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An internal investigation by BHP found the incident was the result of “procedural non-compliance by the operator” and “integration issues with the electronically controlled pneumatic braking system”.
“Even if the track support team had have attended the correct train and applied manual brakes, it would not have been enough to stop the roll-away event,” a BHP spokeswoman said in a statement.

Originally Posted by RossM

Hi Ian, You may want to qualify that belief system. Fully autonomous vehicles have already been utilised within the mining, farming, construction and warehouse sectors and shown drastic improvements in the productivity, worker safety and economy of these industries. Mining in particular continues to make multi-billion dollar investments in this tech. And if you get the chance, get a tour of some modern logistics operations. No forklift drivers or yard vehicle drivers in sight.

I agree that the use case for consumer level autonomous diving is overhyped. The main issue however won't be so much the technology, but legislative environment.

I suspect that the first use cases we will see will be "trackless trains" where certain highway corridors would be cordoned from general traffic, allowing platooned trucks to make long-haul deliveries.

mining and warehousing are all very very controlled environments where automated vehicles can excel.
farming is a less controlled environment, but vehicle speeds are low and pedestrians almost completely absent.

but "trackless trains" still require adequate lane markings or some sort of in pavement sensor.


where I remain highly skeptical is being convinced that there any legislative environment can accommodate the behaviour of pedestrians and cyclists urban environment or not.
Unless an automated vehicle is given carte blanche to run over all pedestrians and cyclists in their path, I can't see how there can be a legislative fix. If I know that the approaching vehicle is programmed to stop or swerve to avoid a collision if I step in front of it -- what's to stop me doing exactly that?
Short of fencing every street and gating every pedestrian crossing I remain to be convinced.

Irrespective of whether automated vehicles are a possibility, and they clearly are in some restricted environments, it is a little fanciful that they will become a reality on a our roads during the likely currency of the Covid-19 virus.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Tccp123

Official response:

"The driver, Peter Frick, was sacked but has since reached a settlement with the company after taking his case to the Fair Work Commission.
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An internal investigation by BHP found the incident was the result of “procedural non-compliance by the operator” and “integration issues with the electronically controlled pneumatic braking system”.
“Even if the track support team had have attended the correct train and applied manual brakes, it would not have been enough to stop the roll-away event,” a BHP spokeswoman said in a statement.

Does that all mean it was totally non-human error (it's a bit of a vague response on their part)? My memory of it is not detailed, but I seem to recall that it was avoidable and that poor decisions were taken, and much too late. Maybe not - like I say "If I Recall Correctly". Wasn't it something along the lines of "ok, the auto system has failed" and then preventative action (derailing) was substantially delayed and the train got too much speed up which created much more damage than it otherwise would have. I have some memory of a guy running alongside that train but then he couldn't keep up. (maybe I'm confusing it with "Runaway" )

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

An absurd situation at ALDI this morning. They have decided to open at 9.30 instead of 8.30 to allow staff extra time to stock the shelves. Last night they sent out an email to those who have set previous "product availability" reminders. .....

Woollies here did the reverse.

They openned an hour early for "centrelink concession card holders" and got the same massive crowd. Their shelf stackers arrived at the same time and were valiently trying to restock shelves depleted the previous day. Chaos.

Fortuitously, I chose to stay in bed.

Why couldn't Aldi and Woollies rostered their shelf stackers on early ?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Does that all mean it was totally non-human error (it's a bit of a vague response on their part)? My memory of it is not detailed, but I seem to recall that it was avoidable and that poor decisions were taken, and much too late. Maybe not - like I say "If I Recall Correctly". Wasn't it something along the lines of "ok, the auto system has failed" and then preventative action (derailing) was substantially delayed and the train got too much speed up which created much more damage than it otherwise would have. I have some memory of a guy running alongside that train but then he couldn't keep up. (maybe I'm confusing it with "Runaway" )

Let's be honest, we'll never know. I doubt that BHP would say anything that would discredit the autonomous train idea and I doubt that the driver would readily make submissions that would implicate himself. But the cause is irrelevant I think and I only quoted it to show that the technology is far from a fait accompli. If it (a system costing billions of $$$ and capable of causing millions of $$$ damage when it goes wrong) can be derailed (pun intended) by something as simple as the driver not applying the emergency brake (which seems to be the implication) then it's got a long way to go.

My most immediate concern of Covid-19, which I will refer to by that designation to avoid any confusion as to which disease group it belongs, is what is going to be done to stem the spread and how we ourselves identify that we may have contracted the disease.

Firstly, I don't believe we can stop Covid-19 as it is going to run it's course until such time as a vaccine is produced or another form of control is found (injection of antibodies from resistant persons or those recovered from an attack?). The issue is to spread the rate of infected cases over time so the system is not overloaded and people are unable to get treatment: That would result in an escalation of the disease and it would replicate the experiences of some other countries already (China, Iran, South Korea, Italy, Spain, France etc).

This was brought home, literally, this morning when SWMBO announced she had a sore throat. I also have had an annoying tickle type cough too, but it is so intermittent that I have dismissed it as dust (happens maybe three to four times in a twelve hour period and is no longer happening at all). Of course with our heightened awareness our thought immediately races to whether we might have contracted Covid-19. It is unlikely as we have not been exposed to high risk groups (travellers or known infected people). Having said that SWMBO is in the age related high risk category, although she is generally well and a lot more active than the vast majority of fifty year olds and I suppose I am not too far behind in the age aspect. However, hypochondria kicks straight in with a vengeance.

This led me to try to find some more definitive information including detail on the myths that abound. I have previously mentioned Covid-19 displays some factors that have not been commonly seen in other coronavirus outbreaks and in themselves are more worrying as we don't absolutely know their implications. This has the potential to promote more fear again.

When I went searching for information several aspects were foremost in my mind. The infectious period, the symptoms or lack of them, the requirements for self isolation as in how isolated we should make ourselves and in particular whether Covid-19 is affected by heat. I turned up a report by a UK fact check organisation that had responded to a post which went viral. The post made ten claims. The Fact Check org said some were accurate and some were inaccurate. They are outlined below with the claim on the left in italics and the evaluation on the right:

Covid 19 claims 1 to 3.png
Covid 19 claims 4 to 6.png
Covid 19 claims 7 to 9.png
Covid 19 claims 10.png

The full report and detail of modification on the original post are in this link:

Viral post about someone’s uncle’s coronavirus advice is not all it’s cracked up to be - Full Fact

We should not take this information as absolute, as the truth is that nobody quite knows, including experts in the field. However it may be that this virus is able to survive in elevated temperatures. We will know more about this as the Northern hemisphere approaches summer and we in the South approach winter.

Just as an aside SWMBO headed off to her book club meeting today where she may be one of the younger members. Ater phoning the hospital first for advice. She has taken a P2 mask with her. Last night we were with a group of eleven people where I was the youngest, SWMBO was the second youngest one person was celebrating her 82nd birthday and another couple were celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary! Physical contact was avoided, but still I wonder whether we should do this any more for the immediate future. (That is the meetings rather than the physical contact .

Our daughter said her entire workforce is now operating from home.

It does bring home both the difficulty and the reality of going about everyday life. It is going to be different for a while.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I also have had an annoying tickle type cough too, but it is so intermittent that I have dismissed it as dust (happens maybe three to four times in a twelve hour period and is no longer happening at all). Of course with our heightened awareness our thought immediately races to whether we might have contracted Covid-19. It is unlikely as we have not been exposed to high risk groups (travellers or known infected people). .... hypochondria kicks straight in with a vengeance. .

Hmmm. Yesterday I read this entire thread for the first time. I had...not so much a headache...but a tightness across the forehead. This morning when I was catching up on new posts I had a very slight roughness of the throat.

On both occasions the symptoms cleared up upon ceasing reading this thread.

In relation to the BHP train derailment. It was NOT an autonomous train. Prior to the driver alighting to rectify a problem he applied the emergency brake,but what he didn't realise was the brake would release after a set time. IIRC the enquiry found that no railway operators anywhere in Australia, using this particular technology, were aware of the self releasing feature at that time.
Cheers,
Geoff.

If the human body temp is approx 37oC, how someone came up with the statement that temps of 26/27oC will kill the virus is beyond me.

Originally Posted by BobL

. Perhaps teachers could think of the risks being taken by medical staff on the front line of this problem?

If I wanted to look after the sick and infirm and expose my self to whatever, I would have become a doctor or a nurse. They chose that profession, I didn’t. Besides that, pictures show them all dressed in protective suits and masks.
Our management and the Govt keep stressing the importance of the social distance but expect us to work within that distance.
i sent a student home today because he came in sniffing with a runny nose.

Working From Home.

I suspect that this will become quite a lot more permanent than it has been in the past. The current situation is clearly going to force it into place. Employers are likely to see that productivity actually increases, along with job satisfaction, when people are working from home for perhaps 3 days per week (I'm talking about after all the shenanigans quietens down). Employees are likely to see that they are far less stressed (no travelling a few days a week is just the start) and are probably able to achieve more in less actual time on the job.

Furthermore, and a longer term benefit, employers will suddenly realise that they don't need to devote as much resource to desks and other workplace requirements.


(sorry, slightly OT, but related to above)

Back 7 or 8 years ago, when all the NBN argy bargy was going on, I was an advocate for basically spending what it would take to put in the very best system available with the current and about-to-mature technology. Fibre to the premises absolutely everywhere that it was reasonably feasible. I was asked a couple of times "why?" and my answer was "because of all the stuff that we haven't thought of or invented yet that a stupendous NBN would be able to handle - the very best tech available now is already out of date by the time you get home."

Stuff we haven't thought of yet? Well, enforced working from home due to a pandemic would be just one of those things. One should never EVER put in a system that will used at full capacity - there's no wriggle room. (yes I know that NBN have said the system will handle it....but so far that's just talk from a bunch of self-servers)

What's the bet that within (say) 5-8 years we have to spend an absolute fortune (like the same amount again) on upgrading the NBN? AFAIK the NBN spend was roughly the same as the money spent on keeping the country going during the GFC (wasn't the deficit about $40Bills?). And now just 12 years later we're (Bomp. Bada-bomp, bada-bomp) Back In Black. And in our 29th, and last, year of uninterrupted growth.

NO! Back In Balance! (a really crap name for a song).

Oh wait......maybe not that either......

Back in Stimulus! Now we're rockin! What a great title.

Thanks a lot Fizza. Your sell-out to the unthinking short-sighted self-serving members is likely to cost a helluva lot more than the original plan.

Originally Posted by Lappa

If I wanted to look after the sick and infirm and expose my self to whatever, I would have become a doctor or a nurse. They chose that profession, I didn’t.

Ordinarily yes, but some might well say (not me) that these are not ordinary times, this is war. How are teachers for example different from a check out operator at a pharmacy or even a grocery store for that matter ?

Besides that, pictures show them all dressed in protective suits and masks.

Not all - only the ones dealing with COVID19 infectees are suited up. Many more nurses and doctors and other staff in hospitals, clinics and surgeries still have to treat other patients for other things. These patients would have about the same risk (maybe more) than students.

Originally Posted by Lappa

If I wanted to look after the sick and infirm and expose myself to whatever, I would have become a doctor or a nurse. They chose that profession, I didn’t.

You don't think that's a bit harsh or acerbic? You'll probably choose to see one if you cop the virus, and no doubt be grateful to them for exposing themselves to your symptoms/illness. They didn't know this was coming either. It is not necessarily what they signed up for, but they will carry on caring for the sick.

Not forgetting too, that virtually ALL of the people that medical staff see will be infected, or think they might be. Teachers, OTOH, may or may not be exposed to a (probably much smaller) percentage of infected individuals, and apparently with the power to be able to send them home.

Originally Posted by Lappa

Besides that, pictures show them all dressed in protective suits and masks.

Ok, so because you've seen a picture(s) of this, that makes all of them completely safe? Like the now-dead Wuhan doctor who raised the initial alarm? (amongst gawd knows how many other medical professionals who will perish or suffer). Broad brush statements like that are "courageous". Or perhaps not fully thought through.

Have a thought for the medical staff in China who have had nervous breakdowns because they knew the situation was hopeless and lives would be lost (at that time, a few weeks ago). They will have PTSD - a life sentence - as a result. The memories of the dead people stacked up in corridors that they could have saved if the resources were available will haunt them forever.



And just btw - BobL was a teacher too. The comment doesn't have to be taken so personally, and I doubt very much that it was directed at you.