Thread: Questions about a second hand set up.

Originally Posted by auscab

Thanks Heaps Bob .
In the past I had multiple users on machines at times . Now its just mostly Me and its one machine at a time .

Even if you do have more than one users from time to time I don't think it's worth laying out the $$ for those situations.

So you answering me, sometimes twice I know , really helps sort my decisions. Thanks for the reply's and patience .
I cringe at thinking how many times your saying some of this stuff . To guys like me who should go read what you've already said
somewhere here. There's so much though and It don't stick for long with me .

Don't worry I'm used to it - I was a high school teacher for a fewyears and then a Uni teacher for 20 odd years so had to repeat the same things at least from year to year and then multiple times in the same year, often many times on teh same day.

I'm wrapped to now know more about the step down diameter info . Looks like just 200mm metal spiral and 150 branches then . Easy !!
2 x 150 area is pretty close to a 200 area pipe . Two 150 or a 200 coming down onto a 24 " thicknesser hood well designed will suck like hell on that dust .

Yeah - keeping it simple is the way to go.

Bob .

The Spiralduct product comes standard with what they call a 1 or 1.5 CLR bend .

1 or 1.5 Center Line Radius .

For 1.5 CLR I'm pretty sure I understood right when they described that as being 1.5 x the diameter of pipe as the radius.

So a 100 mm pipe looks like this yeah?

IMG_7159a.jpg



Their bends are made like this . And their pipe is made for all sorts of uses not just wood dust

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They can also supply larger custom bends for 10% extra .

Is 1.5 CLR Optimal for a wood dust system?
Or what CLR would be optimal for the 150 and 200 mm diameter pipe I will use ?

I understand the bigger the better but Id say the 10% extra quoted goes right up if I ordered say 10 CLR .

Thanks Again

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

They can also supply larger custom bends for 10% extra .
Is 1.5 CLR Optimal for a wood dust system?
Or what CLR would be optimal for the 150 and 200 mm diameter pipe I will use ?
I understand the bigger the better but Id say the 10% extra quoted goes right up if I ordered say 10 CLR .

One thing to bear in mind is very large radii of curvature ducting can be a PITA.
- Ducting going through walls also becomes more difficult.
- If you want to locate a machine close to a trunkline the larger curve will not permit the machine to be located that close.
- Very Large curves can also intrude into vertical space and consume wall space.
This is hard to explain but imagine a machine next to a walkway where ducting has to go over the walk way before dropping down to a machine using a very large radius 90º bend. For the machine to be located next to the walkway the 90º bend curve will have to start somewhere before or over the walk way and by the time it bends down to the machine it will have crossed the walk way at a lower height than the ducting. This can get in the way of materials or personnel.

Same on a wall, especially if you want to use that wall space for something like shelving etc. Instead of ducting going around say a set of shelves a large radius bend will need to sweep across that wall space.

Improvements in efficiency decreases as the CLRs increases.
The CLR for air beyond which there is only marginal improvement is about 2R.
If you are moving ore or a slurry or a solid stream of wood chips then that's another thing.

If the machine is a low dust production machine eg: DP, a small bandsaw or small sander, I have little reservation in using a 1R bend for ducting leading to that machine.

Still playing with machine positions and getting prices comparing New PVC, Metal Spiral Duct and smooth metal clip together Duct .

Surprisingly spiral metal is cheaper than PVC ! There is a big difference in PVC from the same supplier chain as well . Depending on which store you ring . And smooth Metal clip together costs the most. And is the nicest .

I did start the re construction of My collection bin today. The red 200 Liter is what came with the unit . Because I raised the unit as high as I could I have much more space under for a larger bin so I welded a second bin under the first . Cut the base out of the first and the top off the second and welded them together. They wouldn't weld so well as I kept burning through the rolled end and into what ever is in the roll , Old oil or something that smells like Bitumen when its on fire . So I did about 6 two inch long runs rather than the lot and filled the rest of the outside join with plastic filler. When it was hard, I filled the inside of the join with silicon . Could have had it painted today but the spray gun needed a good clean out as usual. Its soaking overnight and paint will be tomorrow .
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It fits just under the outlet so the bar with the hose over it needs cutting out .

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Its around 1740 high now . The window in its lid will be of no use up so high. I have been thinking of a glass window each side around the 1500 high spot . Something that with a glimpse while walking past if its above that, if I cant see the light from the other side Ill know its getting full .
I do have an old front door customer light sensor that let me know when someone came in the front door of the shop . If I could fit that up then Id get a ding dong or buzz to go off . A flashing led light would be better though if it could be connected.

I'm just going to see how good I am at judging when it needs a change first. The outlet for the cyclone will shoot any shavings right out near my backdoor so Ill soon see if its over full .

For starters Ill have a 6x4 trailer nearby and will be up ending this into that I think . Or I can take it out back a bit further and dump it where it can be used later . Just got to see what its like handling it when its full .

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

The window in its lid will be of no use up so high. I have been thinking of a glass window each side around the 1500 high spot . Something that with a glimpse while walking past if its above that, if I cant see the light from the other side Ill know its getting full .
I do have an old front door customer light sensor that let me know when someone came in the front door of the shop . If I could fit that up then Id get a ding dong or buzz to go off . A flashing led light would be better though if it could be connected.

Light sensors are usually not much good as even a small amount of dust can fool them into thinking they're full.

I’m going to fit one of these in my bin Blueline Automatic Float Switch | BCF

hook it to a siren or buzzer with a light, and it will work fine.

I have one in the bilge of the boat, high water alarm, but it was $200 for basically the same thing. I’m certain the shavings will lift it ok, the water does easily.

Originally Posted by BobL

Light sensors are usually not much good as even a small amount of dust can fool them into thinking they're full.

Yep . Maybe Just the simple line of sight thing is best then .

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

I’m going to fit one of these in my bin Blueline Automatic Float Switch | BCF

hook it to a siren or buzzer with a light, and it will work fine.

I have one in the bilge of the boat, high water alarm, but it was $200 for basically the same thing. I’m certain the shavings will lift it ok, the water does easily.

Thanks . Let us know if it does work . I cant imagine how saw dust would be able to lift a switch though .

Originally Posted by auscab

Thanks . Let us know if it does work . I cant imagine how saw dust would be able to lift a switch though .

I'd be surprised if it worked. Also a float anywhere near the top of the collection drum may interference with fine dust separation. This is why its better to empty the collection container well before its full.

I think I have a good solution to knowing when the bin is full .
I have this old closed circuit monitor and camera I used to use in the shop . With it fitted into a box that locates over the window on top and a light to illuminate the inside of the bin I can keep and eye on it as I'm machining . Just flick it on when I need to check it. The Monitor can be placed up on a wall out of the way close to where I work with the big volume dust producers like the Buzzer and Thicknesser.

Id just need a stick or something that fits inside the bin maybe with some visible tags that get covered as the dust level rises .
Maybe just painted dots on the side will do ?

IMG_7328a.jpg IMG_7329.jpg

Originally Posted by auscab

Id just need a stick or something that fits inside the bin maybe with some visible tags that get covered as the dust level rises .
Maybe just painted dots on the side will do ?

My experience is that everything gets covered in dust and its hard to see what is going on visually - even a transparent strip up the side of the drum is not easy to see without looking up close.

I placed my pipe Spiral Duct order four weeks back .
Made the trip to Melbourne to do a few things Yesterday and picked up my pipes today for the trip home .
Ive got enough to do a stage one section, which gets me well on the way by connecting the worst dust producers . A 16M main line of 200mm and 5 branch lines coming off to 7 machines .
This will be connecting the Tenoner, two Table saws, 16" Buzzer and 30" Band saw , 500 wide Thicknesser and Twin drum sander. There is extra sections and pipe in this order as possible left overs which will go into the stage 2 things like Lathes , spindle Moulders and copying machine . I thought dividing it up into stages made sense as figuring it all out for one big order would be getting to pricey. And working it all out accurately as one order seemed a bit to hard as well.

Until today I had not handled the product. Ive got to get it in the shed and figure out how I'm going to make the hangers to hang it from the roof . Ive got 12mm rod, 12mm threaded rod , Gal strap and nuts and bolts for this . Once its in place I'm making Blast gates . Got to decide on a basic design .
I bought 200 and 150 pipe and instead of having branches manufactured within joining sections it was cheaper and gave me more flexibility to add the branches on as patches after the main line is up. Place a 45 degree 200 over the straight 200 main line , mark the cut out piece to come off . Cut it out and screw or rivet and seal the branch over it . 4.2 Meters in the air . I think it'll be easy on my scaffold . It couldn't be done up a ladder. It probably saved me forking out $800 doing it that way . And I'll spend half an hour x 10 cutting and joining . Which will turn into 1hour x 10 or more typically when reality sets in I suppose.

Here's some Pics.
Dispatch section at Spiral duct .

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Go around to rear for pick up .
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Robs load. The pipe with the dent at the bottom was swapped out for a good one, without me asking . This stuff suffers from rough handling .
I wish I had though of taking a IBC crate without the liner for the trip back before going down . Like they have put on wheels .
Good idea discovered to late .
IMG_8047.jpg

Glad I decided at last minute to take the tandem trailer and not load the pipes onto the timber racks of the ute.
They recommended laying the 4M lengths with a 150 inside a 200 and screwing the two together at one end for the timber rack method of transport . The 2M sections would have ended up in the tray.
I think it would have been a bit OTT trying that .

Got it home .
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The next few weeks will be good .
FINALLY getting dust extraction back !

Very Happy .

Originally Posted by auscab

This cyclone of mine has a round intake aperture of 200 mm diameter which is 314cm2. And a rectangular exit 180 x 295 which is 531cm2 .
..........Would it be better if the intake was more closely matched to the exit size ?

The engineers have an idea they apply to ducting, called the Hydraulic Diameter (Dh), which is the diameter of a circle with the same resistance as a given rectangle.

Dh=4A/P where A and P are the area and perimeter of the rectangle.

Your fan and cyclone were designed or matched such that the Dh of the rectangular outlet is 223mm with effective area of 391cm2 .
So my feeling is you made the right choice keeping with 200mm main duct to match the original inlet design. My guess is that the effective area of the rect outlet was deliberately a bit oversized to allow for turbulence caused by the fan.

My tuppence, as they say.

Originally Posted by GreggMacPherson

So my feeling is you made the right choice keeping with 200mm main duct to match the original inlet design. My guess is that the effective area of the rect outlet was deliberately a bit oversized to allow for turbulence caused by the fan.

Thanks Gregg. That's nice to hear. Its good that we have a place we can ask this stuff.