Tenon Saw - Recommendations?

**Bushmiller** · 4th July 2021, 12:31 PM

I have often pondered as to the nomenclature for these saws with a rigid metal back. I think we get a little caught up in the supposed differences. At the extremes of size there may well be some difference. So a small Gents saw (actually Gents saws are always small) is considerably different to a 32" mitre saw, which almost requires a block and tackle to pick it up. However the distinctions between a carcass, sash, tenon and back saw are completely muddy to my mind.

As I have stuck my neck out before on such subjects, I consulted Salaman's "Dictionary of Woodworking Tools." Of course it is arguably only his opinion, but he does allude to the fact that most of these saws look identical, apart from size, and can be sharpened any way you wish.

If I can go back further in time the nomenclature was different again. Take the Kenyon saws in the Seaton Tool Chest.

Benjamin Seaton saws.Book (2).jpg

I would simply say there are four back saws there. If I was in the UK, I might say there are four tenon saws in the picture.

If I was Benjamin Seaton's father, I would say there is a Tomond (19"), a Sash saw (14"), a Carcass saw (11") and a Dovetail saw (9") the descriptions of which are taken from the original inventory in 1797. Time has let us develop our own terminology which is neither precise nor even correct. I think we should probably stick to a "back" saw (it describes the reinforcement of the saw plate perfectly) and let the tooth configuration better describe the intended purpose.

Regards
Paul

**woodPixel** · 4th July 2021, 04:26 PM

OK....

I need a 12" to 16" 10 to 18 tpi sash/back/tenon/carcase saw with a single/pistol/multigrip handle with an 18 to 25 thou plate sharpened to cross/rip cut with plenty/some/no fleem. Second hand/restored, new or artisnally made.

Excellent! I'm narrowing it down

**Simplicity** · 4th July 2021, 05:35 PM

Evan,

If I was you ,I would get a straight vintage Tenon saw
Second hand(Or even ask here ).
Learn to sharpen it , learn to love it , learn to cut with it.
Then evaluate your wants an needs.
Then buy another one.

You will learn so mush about saws this way.

Cheers Matt.

**Scribbly Gum** · 4th July 2021, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

OK....

I need a 12" to 16" 10 to 18 tpi sash/back/tenon/carcase saw with a single/pistol/multigrip handle sharpened to cross/rip cut with an 18 to 25 thou plate sharpened with plenty/some/no fleem. Second hand/restored, new or artisnally made.

Excellent! I'm narrowing it down

Precisely

Tom

**delbs** · 4th July 2021, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Evan,

If I was you ,I would get a straight vintage Tenon saw
Second hand(Or even ask here ).
Learn to sharpen it , learn to love it , learn to cut with it.
Then evaluate your wants an needs.
Then buy another one.

You will learn so mush about saws this way.

Cheers Matt.

Exactly my approach. Learning a lot about sharpening and appreciation for the different sizes and styles. Also makes this forum invaluable as resources and people to discuss this with. Cheap entry point and really rewarding once you restore it or make a new handle to make it fit perfectly.

It's definitely my stepping stone to making my own thanks to Ian's advice and knowledge sharing. Hardest parts brass and 1095 steel acquisition

Good thread Ev!

**yvan** · 5th July 2021, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

OK....

I need a 12" to 16" 10 to 18 tpi sash/back/tenon/carcase saw with a single/pistol/multigrip handle with an 18 to 25 thou plate sharpened to cross/rip cut with plenty/some/no fleem. Second hand/restored, new or artisnally made.

Excellent! I'm narrowing it down

So, what's the problem WP?

**delbs** · 5th July 2021, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

So many considerations.

Delbs - those saws look incredible. I'm impressed at the sexy look of those restorations.

I really love watching the threads where people get some manky old unloved shed-find and make it not only useful but show-worthy.

I also love the threads where raw materials are made into a tool of ultra-envy.... take the hand plane challenge being run right now.... some of those are intensely desirable, both as a machine, but art.

Completely agree here mate, love the idea of making my own saws exactly for my hands but wish to practice a fair bit first. Cheap cost of entry to restore some of these and get setup with saw vice and files to get cracking. The two bottom saws are actually brass backs but you wouldn't know it living in a shed for 100 years

i can sharpen rip saw teeth but now i need to focus and start practicing cross-cut sharpening to have all of them fully functioning again

**woodPixel** · 5th July 2021, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by yvan

So, what's the problem WP?

I was hoping to narrow it down .... a bit...

**delbs** · 5th July 2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

I was hoping to narrow it down .... a bit...

Grab something like this, or two of them

Antique Woollin Brass Back Hand Saw 15"- split saw nut woodwork carpentry | eBayand a saw set

VINTAGE STANLEY No.42 PISTOL GRIP SAW SET SETTING TOOL MADE IN USA HAND TOOL | eBay

Then file them both down to be flat if the teeth are out of shape then use this guide or info on the forum

https://blackburntools.com/articles/...ing-basics.pdf

file one rip cut for tenons, then file the other cross cut

Clean them up, put some oil/wax combo on the handles

smile from ear to ear with each cut

Cheers,
Nathan

**ian** · 5th July 2021, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

OK....

I need a 12" to 16" 10 to 18 tpi sash/back/tenon/carcase saw with a single/pistol/multigrip handle with an 18 to 25 thou plate sharpened to cross/rip cut with plenty/some/no fleem. Second hand/restored, new or artisnally made.

not that difficult at all

as to saw length
12 to 16" covers a fairly wide range of saws -- 12", 14", 16" to name just three saw lengths. I believe that there may also be 13" and 15" models. Making a total of five.

Mitre box saw -- you didn't list it, but typically they come with a full length back, start at about 22 or 24 inches and go up to around 32 inches. Too long for your needs?
Sash -- I'm not sure what type of saw that is, but believe it was designed for working on door and window sashes -- a "sash saw" is, I believe greater than 16" long.
Back -- is just a saw with an iron, steel, brass or weighted resin (Veritas) back to stiffen the blade. But on some saws, the back is only 1/2 the length of the saw plate.
tenon -- typically sharpened RIP
carcass -- typically sharpened CROSSCUT

Note that Lie Nielsen saws are currently only available in tapered versions -- dovetail, carcass and tenon

**woodPixel** · 5th July 2021, 10:15 PM

Delbs, that guide is excellent. I'll read it tomorrow.

Ian - I'm nailing it down. Almost time to loosen the purse strings!

**DomAU** · 5th July 2021, 10:41 PM

I guess with the range of options and variety of opinions you either can't go wrong or 'right' is extremely dependent on individual preference and that means you won't know until you get started (of course that can get expensive if buying new).

Good luck with your decision mate.

Cheers, Dom

**delbs** · 5th July 2021, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Delbs, that guide is excellent. I'll read it tomorrow.

Ian - I'm nailing it down. Almost time to loosen the purse strings!

This in addition Ev, Planemaker posted this in another post about sharpening. Watched it this afternoon. Pretty solid intro to maintenance

Sharpening Western Saws - YouTube

**pedder** · 11th July 2021, 08:12 AM

When the names,Tenon, Sash, Carcase and Dovetail were been given, all saws have been filed with zero fleam and a different amount of rake. The blade material wasn't strong enough to hold an edge with fleam filed saws.

That being said, the TO should tell us the budget. You can buy a Spears & Jackson for 35 USD via amazon for the task or a 750 USD Skelton. No, they won't work the same way and don't look the same way, but it is possible to get results with both. And any saw between.

Cheers
Pedder, from in between

**IanW** · 11th July 2021, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by pedder

....When the names,Tenon, Sash, Carcase and Dovetail were been given, all saws have been filed with zero fleam and a different amount of rake. The blade material wasn't strong enough to hold an edge with fleam filed saws....

Is that true, Pedder? I guess you have researched this aspect, so I probably shouldn't question your statement, but I have always thought these names were relatively recent, well after the time people had learnt to make steel moderately well. I know backsaws do go back a very long way though, in fact I was just reading the other day about a saw from Roman times that shows every evidence of having had some sort of spine (riveted) on it...

Originally Posted by pedder

....Pedder, from in between....

I like that! I think I'll adopt it as my motto too.

I suppose buying a Skelton saw, with over-the-top gizmoa like blade tensioners in the handle rather than a common old S&J, is much the same as someone buying a Ferrari over a Hyundai. Both the S&J and the Hyundai will get you to your destination, but don't give you quite the same bragging rights (& do lack a few refinements!). The very cheap saws leave a bit to be desired, but can certainly be made to perform very well if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, most beginners don't, so it's better they opt for something in-between...

Ian

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