Thread: Future of the Australian Electricity Market

WRT H fuel cell EVs, do we know if you can also charge them at home (or wherever) with the cheapest electricity of all, or do they have to constantly make their own elec?

Little wonder this thread has been so resilient, and lots of interesting information shared. A couple of comments about hydrogen if I may. "Green Hydrogen" has been reported as only 35% efficient when used for combustion and 41% using fuel cells. Saul Griffiths argues that direct conversion from wind or solar and stored in batteries is the best use of the source energy. His point is pretty compelling.

Why is anyone even thinking about H2 powered cars? Liquid hydrogen has a specific gravity of 0.07. Add a storage cylinder which is safe to say 20,000 psi and insulated to cryogenic levels, and that's what you'd be carting around in your car. Am I missing something here?

mick

Originally Posted by Glider

Saul Griffiths argues that direct conversion from wind or solar and stored in batteries is the best use of the source energy. His point is pretty compelling. Why is anyone even thinking about H2 powered cars?

G'day Mick,

Agreed, but many people will need an option for Outback Oz, and elsewhere in the world, where there will never be any charging stations, but either a desire or a need to travel there. Sticking a solar panel on the roof *may take some time*.

Originally Posted by Glider

Liquid hydrogen has a specific gravity of 0.07. Add a storage cylinder which is safe to say 20,000 psi and insulated to cryogenic levels, and that's what you'd be carting around in your car. Am I missing something here?

I presume you're referring to accident impact. Maybe the stats on LPG explosions in accidents might yield a clue to this. I know it's a different can of worms to H2, but if either of them explode I think you'd be just as dead.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Well, my ranting and raving are for naught - my ideas are hardly novel!

A quick DuckDuckGo shows there are PLENTY of H2 generators and H-to-e power units!

H2 Energy Offers Affordable Hydrogen Generator For Home Use - The Green Optimistic ...

That is a real waffle article, WP, strong on hype but devoid of any credible facts. The first sentence sums it up:
" ... Low-cost hydrogen generator from H2 Energy Renaissance is coming soon to wipe out fossil fuels. ... "
That little phrase "is coming soon" is code for "It does not exist yet".

Tell me when it arrives at Bunnings!

A video from someone who has a few qualifications in the engineering field on Hydrogen in cars

That's a good link Chris. Visitors to this thread might also like to see his other video on the relative pros and cons of H2 vs Gasoline (petrol to us). It may be that only turbocharged or supercharged engines are suitable as always the problem is getting air into the engine's cylinders. It's all about air rather than the fuel. Best option for H2 appears to be the the fuel cell.

The Difference Between Gasoline And Hydrogen Engines - YouTube

Also an entertaining Dinky Die "exposé" as to why H2 is no good for the combustion engine.

Everything wrong with hydrogen fuel for internal combustion engines | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube

His fact #3 is pertinent in particular (Go Green). Also much of his detail replicates our American mate.

Regards
Paul

Jason always presents his facts and education videos well and in clear language, Cardogen I will leave to others who are attracted to his somewhat manic style and to my eyes bias. Thanks for the heads up on the second video Paul, I had not seen one. What I have been looking for is a video explaining how the Hydrogen fuel cell works in detail and why it would be any better than a BEV at this point in time. JCB in the UK are pushing Hydrogen for farm equipment and if it could be produced on the farm via renewable energy it could be a winner as farming is a huge contributor to green house gas emissions. hydrogen farm equipment - YouTube The top two videos are to be recommended.

Something that I don't think has been addressed is that in ten to twenty years (my conjecture on timelines and pure guesswork) there will be a whole heap of fossil fuelled cars trucks and agricultural/industrial equipment. I am supposing that they will in fact be phased out to some extent due to natural attrition. Does this mean that at some point owners of private vehicles and commercial operators will have to completely replace their fossil fuelled combustion vehicles with EVs? Or will they be able to convert their old vehicles to H2 fuel (combustion not fuel cell)? For the owners who replace their vehicle on a regular basis, this won't be a problem, particularly as the cost of EVs reduces with the combination of technology and sheer volumes, but for those that have older vehicles or only buy second hand, what will be their options?

Twenty to thirty years ago there was a big push to run vehicles on LPG and conversions were available for that purpose so perhaps something similar for H2. There are also all those car enthusiasts out there with classic, vintage, veteran and other collectible forms of transport. What are they going to do?

One other quick question. As EVs begin to dominate what will take the place of oil excise? I think one state has already made moves to start taxing EVs on a different basis.

Regards
Paul

Victoria have already got the tax thing covered ZLEV road-user charge : VicRoads as at least one US state

and the US Special Fees on Plug-In Hybrid and Electric Vehicles (ncsl.org)

The turnover in the European and US fleets will be quicker because the road conditions destroy cars due to salted roads whereas Australia by world standards has a pretty old fleet because we don't have that problem. The Europeans are regulating disposal to a very high degree, here is BMW's operation and it is fascinating to see the detail of how they dispose of old cars.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Something that I don't think has been addressed is that in ten to twenty years (my conjecture on timelines and pure guesswork) there will be a whole heap of fossil fuelled cars trucks and agricultural/industrial equipment. I am supposing that they will in fact be phased out to some extent due to natural attrition. Does this mean that at some point owners of private vehicles and commercial operators will have to completely replace their fossil fuelled combustion vehicles with EVs? Or will they be able to convert their old vehicles to H2 fuel (combustion not fuel cell)? For the owners who replace their vehicle on a regular basis, this won't be a problem, particularly as the cost of EVs reduces with the combination of technology and sheer volumes, but for those that have older vehicles or only buy second hand, what will be their options?

From last week:

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I don't think that batteries will be the total solution for transport because batteries of any kind are probably going to be heavy and/or bulky, and therefore somewhat self defeating. Also, in the period that we still have fossil fool vehicles (20 years until they have no resale value at all?? Less than 20??) there will be an increasing number of EVs of course, but also increasing tech to go with them. So presumably battery demand will increase while hydrogen is being sorted out, and then decrease. I suppose it's very likely that we might have a series of different hybrid vehicles for a while, to counteract vehicle redundancy. What I mean by that is engines that can run, or be easily adapted to run, on different fuels as they come into play. Similar to Gas & Petrol engines of the last 40(?) years. The last thing someone wants to do is to buy a vehicle that is going to be useless and therefore valueless 5 years after purchase.

It is inevitable is that during the run down of ICE vehicles no matter what fuel is used there will come a time when they can't be repaired either because the knowledge is not there on the part of the service personnel or simply because the industry refuses to work on them. Even now it is becoming obvious that the first generation of cars with a lot of electronics can't be easily fixed because the knowledge has left the industry or the diagnostic equipment is not available. The repair industry as we know it will be destroyed because the small workshop won't be able to work on the new cars being manufactured and the amount of work or servicing required simply disappears. Jay Leno who has a very popular YouTube channel recently said that his seven year old Tesla has not been serviced apart from expendable items such as tyres for the whole time he has owned it and that includes the brake pads which have never required replacement either. The ownership of a BEV reduces costs hugely which is a big plus but it costs a lot of money to buy one.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Jay Leno ..... and that includes the brake pads which have never required replacement either.

When you own 160 vehicles (or something) you can only drive each one so far!

As ICE vehicles are phased out the fuel will become considerably more expensive too, I would imagine, as they make less and less each year.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller
Something that I don't think has been addressed is that in ten to twenty years (my conjecture on timelines and pure guesswork) there will be a whole heap of fossil fuelled cars trucks and agricultural/industrial equipment. I am supposing that they will in fact be phased out to some extent due to natural attrition. Does this mean that at some point owners of private vehicles and commercial operators will have to completely replace their fossil fuelled combustion vehicles with EVs? Or will they be able to convert their old vehicles to H2 fuel (combustion not fuel cell)? For the owners who replace their vehicle on a regular basis, this won't be a problem, particularly as the cost of EVs reduces with the combination of technology and sheer volumes, but for those that have older vehicles or only buy second hand, what will be their options?

From last week:

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I don't think that batteries will be the total solution for transport because batteries of any kind are probably going to be heavy and/or bulky, and therefore somewhat self defeating. Also, in the period that we still have fossil fool vehicles (20 years until they have no resale value at all?? Less than 20??) there will be an increasing number of EVs of course, but also increasing tech to go with them. So presumably battery demand will increase while hydrogen is being sorted out, and then decrease. I suppose it's very likely that we might have a series of different hybrid vehicles for a while, to counteract vehicle redundancy. What I mean by that is engines that can run, or be easily adapted to run, on different fuels as they come into play. Similar to Gas & Petrol engines of the last 40(?) years. The last thing someone wants to do is to buy a vehicle that is going to be useless and therefore valueless 5 years after purchase.

Regards, FenceFurniture

Brett

It appears we are on the same page even though I had missed your page (not sure how I did that)!



Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

... I don't think that batteries will be the total solution for transport because batteries of any kind are probably going to be heavy and/or bulky, and therefore somewhat self defeating. ...

Few areas are as weight conscious as aviation, and Airbus have been experimenting with battery powered aircraft - imagine the engineering expertise that they can access:
Electric flight | Airbus

They observe that one kilogram of avgas contains the energy equivalent of 15-20 kgs of batteries at the current state of the art.

That weight of batteries effectively curtails electric planes at present. Airbus has adopted a monitoring role, waiting for the next development in battery technology.

One of the interesting developments from their research is that aircraft are apparently extremely inefficient on the ground when taxiing. On their electric aircraft they just added an electric motor to the front wheel; this resulted in significant fuel savings. This development is now being evaluated for application in large aircraft.