Thread: Handsaw Restoration Revisited

Are the guests even saw people?

Cheers Matt.

Go at it Paul!

A question: I note a pattern of indentations on several of those saws, and of the few saws I've cleaned up in my time, I've found similar marks to be common. I have always assumed they were due to attempts at re-tensioning, and some really prominent marks like on my father's old Disston undoubtedly are the efforts of less-skilled handiwork. But the very slight ones are so common, and most are so shallow you don't even notice them until you start cleaning the surface, so I'm wondering if many are the result of the original factory tensioning?

I read somewhere that tensioning was one of the last steps & that the saws were re-ground lightly afterwards, which would have reduced the hammer marks butprobably not eliminated them entirely. I understand that later, though not sure when it started, the tensioning was done with a small rolling mill which the saws were guided through by hand. But we seem to be uncertain of several steps in saw manufacture, much seem to have been lost & firgotten, & no-one seems to be absolutely sure of what happened every step of the way between rolling the raw steel & the store-ready result. Do you have any knowledge/opinions that shed light on the matter?

I heartily agree on one point already - it's a messy business whatever liquid you choose for the "W" part! I have usually used kerosene, which doesn't promote rust, but is far from a pleasant odour....

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks for re doing this Paul. What W+D paper do you use? I tend to find that the stuff I buy lasts about 5 mins. For the lower grits I have had success with "painters" sandpaper, which has a thicker paper backing. I dont mind WD40's smell but Kero lingers for ever

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Are the guests even saw people?

Cheers Matt.

Nope!

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by IanW

Go at it Paul!

A question: I note a pattern of indentations on several of those saws, and of the few saws I've cleaned up in my time, I've found similar marks to be common. I have always assumed they were due to attempts at re-tensioning, and some really prominent marks like on my father's old Disston undoubtedly are the efforts of less-skilled handiwork. But the very slight ones are so common, and most are so shallow you don't even notice them until you start cleaning the surface, so I'm wondering if many are the result of the original factory tensioning?

I read somewhere that tensioning was one of the last steps & that the saws were re-ground lightly afterwards, which would have reduced the hammer marks butprobably not eliminated them entirely. I understand that later, though not sure when it started, the tensioning was done with a small rolling mill which the saws were guided through by hand. But we seem to be uncertain of several steps in saw manufacture, much seem to have been lost & firgotten, & no-one seems to be absolutely sure of what happened every step of the way between rolling the raw steel & the store-ready result. Do you have any knowledge/opinions that shed light on the matter?

I heartily agree on one point already - it's a messy business whatever liquid you choose for the "W" part! I have usually used kerosene, which doesn't promote rust, but is far from a pleasant odour....

Cheers,
Ian

Ian

Your supposition may be quite right, although I don't quite know which marks you are referring to in the pix. I will be putting up the work done on two of the saws and the Docking saw in particular had a significant curve in the plate which I have corrected.

I don't really have any extra information on the tensioning process. Taper grinding was achieved using very large grinding wheels but was done freehand.

Thanks for mentioning kero as a lubricant. I knew there was one I had missed. probably the most unpleasant of all regarding smell.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Thanks for re doing this Paul. What W+D paper do you use? I tend to find that the stuff I buy lasts about 5 mins. For the lower grits I have had success with "painters" sandpaper, which has a thicker paper backing. I dont mind WD40's smell but Kero lingers for ever

MA

Normally I start with 240g where most on the work is done and then move up through the grits to a maximum of 2000g. Some saws will not be worth going that far. You will see in a moment that I stopped at 400g with the Docking saw, but started at 120g. Belt sander belts could also be an option, but can only be used dry. Bear in mind that the coarser grits will require more effort to remove their scratch marks.

Regards
Paul

The Docking saw was heavily rusted and I used 120g W&D.

As you can see, it creates a very messy mix. before I started using the W&D I "dressed the saw screw holes. On the reverse side the hole is rarely flat and if left unattended it will rip the W&D to shreds in no time. They can be hammered flat against a suitable block of metal or, as I did in this instance, they were reamed with largish twist drill held in the hand. Rub the paper up and down parallel with the toothline.

P1080734.jpg

This is the way I use the paper on edge (The pic is not of the Docking saw) and I reserve it exclusively for the toothline. The set on this saw was humungus and I could only use the W&D with any pressure from heel to toe.

P1080728.jpg

After using two strips of 120g it came up like this, but it was at this point I decided to attempt some straightening of the quite severe curvature. Although I am only showing one side of the plate, I work alternately on both sides. One flat and one edge of the sanding block and then flip the saw for the other side. This way water does not accumulate for long without being worked.

P1080738.jpg

If the dog hammers are used too early, the gritty rust will embed itself into the plate. If used too late, the slight imprints made by the hammer head cannot be minimised by further rubbing.

P1080739.jpg

After straightening, I made a series of taps down the length of the plate on both sides about 25mm up from the tooth line to add a little tension as I felt the blade was a little too wippy. The second pic shows one of my dog hammers and my improvised anvil made from railway iron.

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These last pix were after rubbing with 240g and then 400g. I really didn't see much mileage in taking the grits any further as the pitting does not warrant further work. The saw plate is smooth and will work just fine. That is once the teeth are jointed and resharpened as this will take away some of the large set. It cut a 3mm kerf! There is one broken tooth so jointing can be justified on that account anyway. I daren't try to bend the teeth back as they would almost certainly snap off as they are bent right down to the root of the tooth. Normally only the top third of the tooth is set.

A strange aspect is the number of holes under the handle. A docking saw only ever has two holes and the handle is riveted on. The rivets looked to be factory fitted. Another anomaly is that docking saws universally have 4½ppi and are crosscut. This saw has 5ppi. It may not sound very different, but it is. I suspect it was re-directed at the factory having been originally intended for something else.

P1080746.jpgP1080747.jpg

I will need to make a new handle and it's intended purpose will be a rough knock about saw for use on a rural block.

Regards
Paul

I treated theNo.61 the same way as the Docking saw except I started with 240g. This pic is the saw being rinsed off in a bucket of water
P1080729.jpg

After two strips of W&D paper the plate was looking like this. The etch area is slightly darker as I go lightly over this part. It is amazing how quickly the etch can disappear if you are heavy handed. Ther is a balance between the level of polish and retention of the etch, which becomes provenance as well as information.

P1080735.jpg

I have elsewhere stated that revealing the etch is one of the aspects that makes saw restoration worthwhile. The Simonds Blue Ribbon saws always had three etches: The main Simonds etch:

P1080730.jpg

The Simonds steel etch, with the price of $2.50 in this case too:

P1080732.jpg

And the guarantee etch:

P1080733.jpg

This saw had a fourth etch as it was destined for a hardware chain, Davies of Boston. I had not noticed it until I got to work with the grits.

P1080731.jpg

This one I took through 400g, 800g, 1200g, 1500g and finally 2000g. Not every where, but in parts it would be fairly cloase to the original level of shine.


P1080750.jpgP1080751.jpg

A little bit of reflection. The shine is sufficient to see my face in the plate, but you won't have to put up with that.

P1080753.jpg

Some of the pix were taken at nighttime with minimal artificial light so that explains, I hope, some of the strange colours.


Regards
Paul

Paul,
They have come up fantastically, especially the Simionds.
Ruffle how long did you spend on the Simionds,

Also someone asked about what Brand of Wet an dry paper, from my own experience if you can get hold of 3M I would go with that.(Auto paint supplies will stock it)

Cheers Matt.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Paul,
They have come up fantastically, especially the Simionds.
Ruffle how long did you spend on the Simionds,

Also someone asked about what Brand of Wet an dry paper, from my own experience if you can get hold of 3M I would go with that.(Auto paint supplies will stock it)

Cheers Matt.

Thanks Matt

They both came up better than I had expected, although admittedly to different levels.

Sorry, I missed the question of W&D brand. I just use whatever I can get my hands on. Some brands may be better than others, but I have not evaluated that. If there are recommendations by you or others I would be pleased to hear them.


I didn't really time myself with either saw as at times I was cooking tea on the BBQ and then I left things overnight and came back to it in the morning. I would guess that actual time spent with the abrasive paper would have been one hour, but you could add at least another hour for setting up, getting materials together and removing the handle.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

One hour is not bad going, too be honest.
I must try an get back in too restoring one or two of the saws i have, maybe that should actually be 10/20 but I don’t think numbers matter really do they.[emoji6]

My biggest problem is i hate sanding saw plates, i think i just need to set up the right environment, because i do love looking at a nice etch,no that is not kinky.


Cheers Matt.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

......Also someone asked about what Brand of Wet an dry paper, from my own experience if you can get hold of 3M I would go with that.(Auto paint supplies will stock it)...

I'll second that. The stuff you get from the big green shed is not the greatest. I've just been using some & it's not on a par with the better quality paper. I bought it because they haven't had any stearated 400 grit paper in stock for yonks. They seem to have switched to a new brand which I find is not as good as what they used to stock, & different packaging (lots of mixed grits - meh! I want packs of the grades I use, thanks)...

Cheers,

The Simonds No.62 was the next saw off the rank and this proved to be a disaster. The No.62 was the skewback companion to the No.61 already featured and I had high hopes for it. Introduced in 1910 the bule ribbon saws lasted until Simonds ceased production in of handsaws in 1926, but for the first four years they featured the enameled "dollar" medallions before reverting to the traditional medallions.

P1080759.jpg

There was heavy rusting beneath the handle area which I scraped off with the saw screw drivers and then I used a single strip of 240g W&D. It immediately revealed two problems.

P1080761.jpgP1080762.jpg

There was a distinct bend at the very tip of the nose (the pic is poor and it is not visible), which was quite easily corrected with the angled dog hammer

P1080768.jpg

But there was a large bump two thirds of the way down the saw plate and I tackled that with the round dog hammer. It proved to be too much for my skills as it appeared to be a bubble which would "pop" back and forth from one side to the other. I don't know if this was the dent to which Ian referred in an earlier post ( I sometimes thinks his eyesight is better than he makes out ). In the end last night, in the restricted light, I gave up and moved on to the saw I believed to be the Osceola, but more of that in another thread.

P1080763.jpgP1080764.jpg

This morning I looked at the No.62 saw plate in the tender light of day and it became apparent why I was experiencing so much difficulty: There is a large crack is in the middle of the bubble.

P1080769.jpgP1080770.jpg

This one is unsalvageable and only suitable for parts or cut it down to make a panel saw (while this sounds like a good idea, the saw plate on a 26" saw is usually quite a bit thicker than the panel saws). It looks as though something very heavy with a sharp edge has fallen on it at some point in the past. It produced a huge dent as well as cracking the plate. Something like my piece of railway iron anvil.



You can't win 'em all.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

Do you not bother to do any scrapeing of the rust at any stage??

Graham.