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2nd March 2024, 11:04 PM #31
Graeme, in your second post you showed a “disassembled” view of the joinery. Is that just your guess? Clearly it can’t be correct, there is your starting point! I am just bewildered, solving the problem might consume what’s left of my life! Good luck! I’m leaning towards some 45 degree deception myself!
Swifty
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3rd March 2024, 12:36 AM #32
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3rd March 2024, 12:48 AM #33
Read the series of posts and all will be as clear as mud. That "disassembled" view is essential before my step 2 - which, inigmatically, I am withholding. We are trying to workout how to cut those shapes.
A lot of people have been trying to solve it for almost 20 years - many false "solutions" but ... you are very welcome to try.
Good luck! I’m leaning towards some 45 degree deception myself!
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3rd March 2024, 09:09 AM #34
Grasshopper, like all the great masters the only way to learn their secrets is to serve an indentured apprenticeship with them and to accept the associated obligation to not share that knowledge.
So many secrets of wood working remain unsolved. Just look at Yosegi, Tunbridge ware, even Buffard Fereres inlay banding constructions, still lots of mystery about how the more complex designs were achieved or could be produced at a market competitive / acceptable price. Those secrets are earned but only if you are worthy.
If you look at the other complex joints Kintaro Yazawa makes they also appear to be the same - unglued. It's pretty difficult but not impossible to disguise the use of glue in a dovetail like joint.
I love the mystery and fully respect Kintaro Yazawa's playful teasing of potential imitators, such grace in acknowledging his own superiority as a maker whilst "seeing off any potential competition". At least he has passed on his knowledge and those guarded "commercial in confidence" trade secrets to his staff.
Another issue to consider here is the knowledge about how to construct that joint really is of curiosity or novelty value to us but it has significant commercial value and I might say adds a considerable premium to the unique work produced in Kintaro Yazawa's workshop and by him and his staff.
Intellectual Property Rights are difficult and expensive to protect, look up the numerous court cases involving glass artist Dale Chihuly. There is also no guarantee that the courts, or the court of popular opinion will side with the original maker either. It is indeed nigh on impossible to protect process IP, registered designs - yes, copyright - yes; process - no; patents - for a term. So the only realistic avenue to protect one's lively hood is through highly guarded "commercial in confidence" trade secrets and to demand loyalty from those entrusted with those secrets. The formula for Coke a Cola syrup is a testament to the value of a closely guarded trade secret - real or imagined.Mobyturns
In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever
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3rd March 2024, 10:01 AM #35Member
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What about this:
IMG.jpg
Not sure if he only uses hand tools, but the slot in the finger could be cut with a router (a bit at a time, with plenty of support, carefully!) then the piece with the keyhole shape could be steam bent to 45deg. I must admit though I have no experience with steam bending so I don't know how possible this is. The rest of the joint could be cut with a router like a standard finger joint (from the face of the board, not the side, and then then shoulders cleaned up with a chisel) but leaving a bit to be hand shaped round with a small file for the male keyhole part. The corresponding female keyhole part could be drilled with a small forstner bit. Then, the joint could be slid together at 45deg and the male keyhole shape be steam bent back into place, with something to fill the slot first if desired. Of course, it would have to be glued unless another solution can be found to hold the joint together. A bit hard to describe and I'm not saying this is necessarily how he did it, but it's a thought.
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3rd March 2024, 10:30 AM #36
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3rd March 2024, 10:52 AM #37Member
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....remembered something from school..
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3rd March 2024, 11:12 AM #38
I am moderately certain that the first move of the board without the through fingers on top and bottom (call this the short board and the other one the long board - just for ease of describing) is an oblique move. If you look at the detail closeup photo earlier, you will see deep shadows around some of the long board keyhole holes. This fits with there being a void into which the short board would move.
Next week I hope to have a new handtool to help cut the keyhole finger joints and then it should be a matter of relieving some hidden areas on both boards and drilling a path for the one set of key pins to exit. This is the step where I expect to fail.Last edited by mic-d; 31st March 2024 at 01:56 PM. Reason: tried clarifying explanation
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3rd March 2024, 08:16 PM #39
Thanks Manetje
Mic-d suggested something quite similar in Post #12; it was trialed about 10 or 12 years ago but no one could make it work - they kept snapping on the short grain.
Short Grain.jpg
I never thought of using steam bending and am unsure of its applicability in this situation. It looks like the bend is too sharp.
Also, I did not understand your reference to assembling at 45° - as everything seems to be at 90°.
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3rd March 2024, 08:34 PM #40
Still watching with interest mic-d. If you look at the photos of the inside of Yazawa's jewelry box, the corners are quite clear - no visible trenches which possibly would be needed for diagonal sliding joint. I have tried so many varients of this but none got close to working.
But you may come up with something I never thought of??
As to tooling, I have been thinking along the lines of miniature chisels, mini gouges, mini-scorp, etc, even dental instruments. My guess is that Yazawa's jewelry box has finger joints about 3 mm wide. That defines the size of the tools!
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3rd March 2024, 09:20 PM #41
Look at the high level skill required in setting out then making the joints in his Hishigata box and the geometry of the joint set out.
Mobyturns
In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever
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3rd March 2024, 09:39 PM #42
Those "diamond" finger joints allegedly have fingers that are 0.3 mm wide - the kerf of a dozuki?
It is really hard to get your head around that joint. I have reasonable CAD skills and it took me two days to workout its construction and how to draw it. It is basically a mixture of a finger joint and a mitre joint.
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3rd March 2024, 09:42 PM #43
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3rd March 2024, 10:02 PM #44
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3rd March 2024, 10:12 PM #45
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