A new to me Tool Chest

My younger daughter has inherited the "eye" ; so when she suggested I check out this item in a recent Auction in Melbourne ; I did.
Looked nice ;but only one picture of the contents;looking minimal.
It was a combined physical and online auction so I took a punt and bid on the estimated value of the chest alone,
I was pleasantly surprised to get an email informing me I had narrowly won the auction.
I was even more pleasantly surprised when the Carrier delivered the boxAttachment 511842Attachment 511843Attachment 511844Attachment 511845Attachment 511846


What did it contain; I hear you ask?
Carrier said he could barely lift it.
Attachment 511872Attachment 511871Attachment 511870Attachment 511869Attachment 511868Attachment 511867Attachment 511866Attachment 511865Attachment 511864Attachment 511863Attachment 511862Attachment 511861Attachment 511860Attachment 511859Attachment 511858Attachment 511857Attachment 511856Attachment 511855Attachment 511854Attachment 511853Attachment 511852Attachment 511851Attachment 511850Attachment 511849Attachment 511848Attachment 511847Attachment 511846Attachment 511845Attachment 511844
Simon Barley in his British Sawmakers has the Kaye saw medallion at 1880.
Both saws are in pristine condition as are the rest of the tools,
I dont think the large ?shipwrights saw has ever been used.
There are Patternmakers chisels also so the provenance gets a little murky.
All the tools stamped with the ?original owners stamp are top quality with Rosewood/Boxwood Handles
The brace is Ibbotson with a full set of Mathieson bits.

The box lid is one piece of mahogany; un;fortunately on of the internal trays is missing;bu I am slowly making a replacement=Some very small dovetails.
The top two trays are lidded and there is a sliding protector beneath the lowest trays.
The pencil is a WW2 Egertons Manchester War Drawing HH pencil.
Some upholsterers tools from a later life,
One Australian tool ;a cyclone Warrington pattern hammer.
As the new Custodian I will try to fill the chest out with appropriate 1880 era tools; but finding stuff in similar condition will be tricky.

Cheers
Tony

Nice score - should be fun exercise to get all the tools up and running.

Here are a couple of contemporary catalogue cuts showing some possible complete chest contents.
First is from Goodmans-Some 19th century english woodworking tools.1870
Second is from J Howarth Catalogue 1884
I have the tools to complete it but quality is the break point.
Once the missing tray is complete I will assess the situation.

cheers

Forgot the picsAttachment 511876Attachment 511877

That’s a fantastic score!
Kays were in business until the 1980’s but I believe their heyday was between the wars; so to me any pre-WW2 tools would be age appropriate.

Tony

You have been a little quiet in recent times, but you certainly know how to make a comeback!

I am not quite sure where you are getting the dates from, but in Barley's book I saw an exact replica of the back saw medallion, which was estimated at 1910. The split nuts on the both the backsaw and the handsaw (rip?) saw probably make the saws no later than the WW1 era (the Brits did seem to persist with split nuts years after the Americans). The nib also fits into a time line no later than WW1. In Barley's pictures of the stamping they are shown as "Warranted"and "Cast Steel" in that order while yours is the other way around on both.

Perhaps the single thing that could place the saws, and consequently a good many of the other tools (but not the B&D drill :) ), prior to 1900 is the simple fact that the saws are stamped rather than etched. However I had not Heard of Kaye saws before and can only regurgitate information found in Simon Barley's book.

A very good pickup and compliments to the daughter. I hope she got a spotter's fee.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller is correct on the medallion on the backsaw but the backsaw has the earlier stamp on the spine. Who would be a historian?
The backsaw lacks owners stamps on the handle and does not have a niche of its own in the lid.
The hand saw lacks a medallion;has stamps and has its own space created in the lid.
May be the backsaw was a later addition?

The pincers and dividers are both by J Jolly.
The squares are both by J Howarth.
The inch and 7/8 plane is by Malloch of Perth.
Chisels are of differing makers but are handled alike which makes me think our man made his own handles.
No turnscrews or files which makes you wonder what was in the missing tray..


This chest may have originated in Hull which was a large port in the late 1800s with around a THOUSAND trawlers.
Lots of work for shipwrights.

Cheers
TonyAttachment 511918Attachment 511919

I am not seeing anything that indicates shipwright other than the saws came from Hull. All carpenters tools and good ones but nothing shipwright specific. That said a great find, a great chest and great treasures within.
Regards
John

Attachment 511936Tha handsaw is shipwright form ;but has never been used.
No other shipwright tools; some patternmaker chisels and some later upholstery tools. All tools in lovely order.
Our man may have died young; gone to the Boer War or become a politician.
I may have a little post COVID brain fog because I have found an owners mark on the backsaw which makes the dating around 1880-1910 for saws and possibly the chest
This backsaw handle is rather nice and may be the nicest in my collection.

I have a non woodworking friend who owns his great grandfathers pattern making chest, came to Geelong from Glasgow via Kalgoorlie and Bendigo goldfields.
It has suffered terrible depradations from butcherous teenagers and non tool using adults. Only some tools left recognisable; the box is still reasonable.
Thinking of that one makes this one special.

T

Hi AJ. Can you expand a bit on what makes the backsaw a shipwright's one? And how did finding an owners mark help with dating? Your find is fascinating and intriguing and I love the story behind the tools.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Hi AJ. Can you expand a bit on what makes the backsaw a shipwright's one? And how did finding an owners mark help with dating? Your find is fascinating and intriguing and I love the story behind the tools.

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MA

I think the reference was to the handsaw. Early handsaws were physically big saws. A 26" model was frequently 7¼" at the heel. There was a trend however towards narrower saws. The major companies described them slightly differently, but it came to the same thing: A saw that was closer to 6" at the heel from brand new. Disston referred to them as "lightweight," Atkins called them "Ship Carpenters' " and Simonds, very unimaginably, described them as "narrow". Oten a model number offered both styles at no difference in price. In other instances a separate model designation was made.

Spear & Jackson made a ship carpenters' model so it was not just an American tradition, but I have no information on Kaye saws. The argument for this type of saw was that using the toe mainly, it was possible to cut gentle curves, something that might have been useful on timber clad ships. The second reason was that these saws had less bulk and in the hands of people who were less used to using a hand saw they became more manageable. Of course both premises are debateable. As these narrower saws became more prevalent during the period between the two world wars, the original saw, which were just saws, were increasingly referred to as "regular width" saws.

Regards
Paul

Edit: I'll have to leave the owner's mark to Tony.

Good work Bushmiller.
Here is a pics of the handsaw compared to a contemporary SJ handsaw; the saw is 26 and one half inches long oddly.Attachment 511968Attachment 511969

I also include some pics of the trays one of which has tray within itself.Attachment 511970Attachment 511971Attachment 511972Attachment 511973Attachment 511974


Also a pic saw fitted in lid.

T

Mountain Ash
The saw maker stamped a mark in the middle of a handsaw plate and in the middle of a backsaws back.
The handsaw stamping changed for some makers to an acid etch from 1860s onwards. Some makers earlier ;some later.American earlier.
Backsaws retained stamping of backs but plates were etched; more 1890s onwards and those etches were quite fragile(They rarely show up today)
The stamps used in saw plates were often multiple; the stamper stamped the plat wit Warranted the with Kaye bond street hull and then with cast steel.
Some older saw plates were also stamped with Kings heads times three denoting superiority of steel.
The advent of etching allowed some manufacturers to cut loose and put elaborate etches and some potentially extravagant statements on their top end saw plates.
If they had good acid then the etches were nice and deep ; lasting to present day (corrosion dependent)
Etches in backsaw blades generally used weak acid and are consequently rare.

I can recommend the book of Dr Simon Barley on British saws and sawmakers also the website Backsaw.net(invaluable to saw fans) The Disstonian Institute is great if you have or are interested in Disston Saws.

Cheers
Tony