HNT Gordon Plane

http://www.hntgordon.com.au/specialtyplane%20024.jpg

I had a good chat with the maker and got to see & feel a few of these in person on the weekend and they are beautiful.
Just wish I could afford one!

I have an old all wood shoulder plane and one difference has left me wondering. What the brass wedge is for? Could it not have been incorporated in the wood body like the old ones?
One of those things that just keep playing on your mind until you give in and seek an answer.


I assume it helps the wooden wedge fit better but pivoting on the brass dowel slightly??

The brass will not wear and cause a sloppy fit of the wedge. And it looks cool :cool:
To be honest, I don't even know if wear in that area on an all wood plane is a problem. You could send Terry an email.

Perhaps it's easier to machine the bed and key way with a large slot and then fill in the difference with a chunk of brass :shrug: dunno. I had wondered the same thing and put it down to 'cause it looks bad ass'.

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Originally Posted by Berlin

Perhaps it's easier to machine the bed and key way with a large slot and then fill in the difference with a chunk of brass :shrug: dunno. I had wondered the same thing and put it down to 'cause it looks bad ass'.

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Yeah
thought about that but that would mean that it is 90deg behind the blade also and that would also have to be filled with a wedge……..

My suggestion is that it's just a lot easier to make the blade-retaining mechanism this way. The pivoting ramp allows clean mating with the top surface of the wedge, distributing the force over a good section of wedge & thus applying even pressure on the blade. It must be a lot simpler & easier to manufacture (anyone who has tried it knows how tricky it is to cut those wedge slots, and what a tedious PITA it can be getting the wedge to apply even pressure on both sides!). With Terry's system, you don't need to be as meticulous with your tolerances as you do with a fixed ramp & wedge, fitting the wedge in a pivoting ramp would be a very minimaal affair, unlike the alternative. I reckon it's a brilliant solution - simple & highly effective.

And a bit of extra brass never goes astray on a wooden tool, does it? :U

Cheers,

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Originally Posted by IanW

anyone who has tried it knows how tricky it is to cut those wedge slots, and what a tedious PITA it can be getting the wedge to apply even pressure on both sides!

And a bit of extra brass never goes astray on a wooden tool, does it? :U

Cheers,

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YES! It is a right royal PITA

And NO! Too much brass is never enough.

I'm already planning my plagiarism. :D
(or spending some dough on the real McCoy)

Is chiselling them out the only way??

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Originally Posted by DSEL74

Is chiselling them out the only way??

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By "them", I take it you mean the wedge slots, DSEL? Yep, saw to the lines & chisel out the waste is the only practical way I can think of. You need a saw that will fit in tight spots, and it helps to have some skinny floats for tidying things up as well (which I don't, so I just have to take it carefully).....

Matt - I don't think the pivoting ramp idea is patented - it's been around for much longer than HNT. A variant I saw in a very early FWW is to modify the cross-dowel, in a "Krenov" style plane. Instead of glueing it in the sides, the dowel is fitted so it can rotate freely, and a flat on the dowel mates with the top surface of the wedge. This gives a better 'hold' than a round dowel, but you still need to work carefully, & make sure the wedge fits under the full width of the cross-dowel, or you'll have uneven pressure. Terry's system goes one better by having the two sides independant (on his wider planes), which gives you a sort of three-point pressure system, pretty well ensuring everything snugs up when the wedge is driven home. I'd not seen the independant abutment idea before I saw a HNT plane, & Terry may well have thunk it up for himself, but chances are that it's not new, there have been a lot of clever people in this world. :;

If you want to use the idea, but acknowledge the master, just buy a pair of abutments from him - they are quite reasonable, considering how long it would take to make a pair from scratch.......

Cheers,

IanW,
Yes I was referring to the wedge slots.

I not sure how you saw them?? Do you drill the ends & use a fret saw?
Second question is what is a skinny float?

The abutments in the parts section from HNT I don't think are the ones he uses in the shoulder planes.





I doubt it is an original idea either, not much is. I developed a great idea all on my own to make a plane with a chisel in it as a blade. Of course after reading a old book for boys, (scouts or popular mechanics) some time later, there was the exact same idea. So even if someone independently develops an idea it is not always new.


That leads me to another question, side bevelled blades, do they make a difference in a plane??

Hi,
I am no expert but isn't the brass wedge designed to go either side of the blade to change the angle for a more scraper type cut?
Regards

Ian, all my Ulmia bench planes have a flat trapezoidal pivoting abutment (on one of which there is a patent number incidentally) so I guess it's not really a 'new' idea, but I'd never seen it on a side escapement plane before.

The independent dual abutment system is also used by ECE from memory. As you said plenty of smart people around. :)

In the words of Lorinda Almeda "If you copy from one it's plagerism, if you copy from more than one then it's research."

I might also research his groovy dado plane nicker...

Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Duke

Hi,
I am no expert but isn't the brass wedge designed to go either side of the blade to change the angle for a more scraper type cut?
Regards

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The brass wedge is fixed in by the pin, maybe you could move the wooden wedge behind the blade. Or certainly flip the blade bevel up to get a different angle.

Ok here is an answer straight from the horse's mouth

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The brass piece is for 2 reasons, it makes it easier to make the plane as there is more room to cut and scrape the bed to the shape required, eg you can see what you are doing better. And it also makes getting the blade out much easier as it unlocks the wedge when it is tapped with a mallet. Without it, getting the wedge out if it has been put in too hard can be a major problem.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSEL74

IanW,
Yes I was referring to the wedge slots.

I not sure how you saw them?? Do you drill the ends & use a fret saw?
Second question is what is a skinny float?

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DSEL, it depends how you make your plane. For a traditional solid-bodied woody, you have to chop out the main hole first, leaving wood either side in which the wedge groove will be cut. The saw you use just has to fit inside the hole youve made, to make the cuts that define the groove for the wedge. One of these cuts is flush with the blade-bed, so you can't use a back-saw. I use a home-made saw which is a bit like a mini meat-cleaver, with the teeth reversed to cut on the pull stroke.

Here's a way to do it that makes the job a lot easier, by cuting plane body up & re-assembling it after the abutments are made. If you follow the pictorial guide you will get a very good idea of what's involved. It's essentially the same process used to make the cheeks for the abutments in a solid-bodied plane, made a bit easier.

And for one more variation on the theme: I saw somewhere, but can't remember where it was, someone made a wedged plane by glueing in a couple of cheeks, rather than forming them on the body material, so there are several ways to skin this feline.

A float is essentially a coarse, single-cut file. They are used to smooth the blade bed, and a thinner version can be very handy for cleaning up the wedge slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSEL74

The abutments in the parts section from HNT I don't think are the ones he uses in the shoulder planes.

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No, the ones illustrated are for wider planes requiring double abutments -I was really just pointing out to Matt that HNT sells them, so he must be happy for folks to copy his methods.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSEL74

That leads me to another question, side bevelled blades, do they make a difference in a plane??

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The only side-bevelled blades I've seen are on some shoulder planes. I have no idea what function this serves, so will be as enlightened as you if someone can give us a good reason....... :U

Cheers,