A grinding problem

G'day
I use a Woodcut jig to sharpen nearly all my tools but I have a P&N 12mm bowl gouge that I cannot get a satisfactory grind on using my jig.I prefer a moderate fingernail grind on my bowl gouges , but when I try to sharpen this gouge I get a high point on the shoulder which catches something horrible.I sharpen my gouges with the angle on the jig set at 2 and the distance set at 134.This works OK on a P&N 16mm supaflute,a 16mm hamlet gouge,a 22mm hamlet gouge and 9.5mm Mcjing gouge.I am using a 200mm CBN wheel and the axle height of the wheel is 145mm from the bench. I have tried all sorts of settings but am just wasting a lot of steel .I can muck around and sharpen freehand or selectivly grind off the high points on the shoulders and get a multifacet grind but I would much prefer to be able to do a quick touch up using the jig to keep the tool sharp.
This gouge does seem to have a proportionaly deeper flute than the other gouges and this may be the source of the problem.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should change the settings on my jig to fix this problem?
I tried to get pictures of the grind but my camera could not cope.
Ted

If I understand you correctly ( could you supply a pic?)the high point on the shoulders is a result of not rotating the tool in the jig far enough around (both ways) to grind them away.

My second point would be that there may be some technique issues if you are getting catches as a reult of these high points. Once again, if I understand the scenario correctly if you are having catches it will be more about the way the tool is being presented to the wood than high points.

:whs: :yes:

P&Ns have deeper flutes which means the meat behind the middle of the grind is way less than the sides. Not sure if you need to change any angles, or just spend more time doing the sides than the middle. The cbn wheel will be removing metal in a fair hurry. Maybe start on the side then go to middle then other side, rather than middle side middle side middle. if you get my drift.

If it is a "U" shaped flute instead of a parabola or a "V", it can also be adding to it. The sides need to be ground parallel to the inside flute shape. You can't just do all the outsides the same regardless of the flute shape.

I can safely say that the P & N flutes are not perfectly central, so you'll have some time and practice to get the shape right. That's why I love the wet-stone grinder. You can sneak up on it.

I did use a Tormek 250mm CBN wheel on a Tormek last night at the club. Great for Club use. Not as severe as a spark grinder, but faster than a Tormek standard wheel.

IMO P & Ns are variable in flute quality but the steel is good. My latest "go to" bowl gouge is from Vicmarc (unhandled). The steel is great, as is the flute. Price also is great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jefferson

I can safely say that the P & N flutes are not perfectly central,

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I agree with the above statement.
I had cause to send back 2 bowl gouges recently to P&N , they were replaced free of charge.

It's a shame because I really like the P&N tools.

Col

I put paragraphs in but when I enter it mushes all together. Turnerted, If you are getting a satisfactory grind on your 16mm, use the same distance and settings on the 12 mm and swing the gouge far over on the left & right when sharpening.
I use an 8 inch 120 grit white wheel on an 1725 RPM dry grinder.
I start grinding my bowl gouges with the side of the gouge almost parallel to the face of the wheel, bring it up a bit past the tip, off the wheel, bring gouge to the opposite side almost parallel to the face and grind a little past the tip.
I lighten the pressure going toward the tip so more grinding is going on the sides.
If you want more fingernail go back and forth a bit on the sides and then swing across.
If you want a perfect smooth grind start at one extreme and lightly swing all the way to the other extreme.
I sometimes don't get the gouge perfectly centered in the jig so get an asymmetrical grind, it doesn't seem to make any difference in how it cuts. After one pass each way I have a look and repeat to taste.
If you are taking off too much metal lighten the grip. See sketch to see how I start grinding the gouge on the right side. Black is wheel, purple jig, red gouge.

I have bee trawling the net looking for some possible solutions to some ideas I have for grinding.

Don't ask me where but on one set of information for one jig was a note to say it was not suitable for
P&N gouges.

Thanks for the replys.
Tea Lady is the one who came up with the answer.I ground the wings down as she suggested and then did a final grind all the way round to blend it all in.
The flute shape is a deep parabolar and I had been rotating the tool as far as the jig would let me.Just to make sure it was right , I picked a small roughed out bowl off the shelf and finished it off using this gouge.No problems.
Thanks TL
Ted

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turnerted

Thanks for the replys.
Tea Lady is the one who came up with the answer.I ground the wings down as she suggested and then did a final grind all the way round to blend it all in.
The flute shape is a deep parabolar and I had been rotating the tool as far as the jig would let me.Just to make sure it was right , I picked a small roughed out bowl off the shelf and finished it off using this gouge.No problems.
Thanks TL
Ted

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Terrific. :U Glad you have solved it.
:cool:

I read on another forum that P&N drill bits are now made in China, have not confirmed it, so does that mean the chisels will turn to sh#t as well?
Rgds,
Crocy.

I have been a fan of P & N bowl gouges for a long time but the new Vicmarc gouges, not including the handles, are fantastic. Great steel, good flute shape and easy to sharpen. Just forget the handles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old Croc

I read on another forum that P&N drill bits are now made in China, have not confirmed it, so does that mean the chisels will turn to sh#t as well?http:
Rgds,
Crocy.

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There is made in China, and there is made in China. I have one of these:

Benjamins Best 1/2 in. HSS Bowl Gouge at Penn State Industries And one of these:

Benjamins Best 1-1/2 in. HSS Round Nose Scraper at Penn State Industries That I bought used $35.00 for both.

The scraper cuts as well as the Henry Taylor scraper. The bowl gouge is as good as my Crown, my made in Sheffield, GB mystery gouge, or my Thompson.

Then there is this:

8 Piece Wood Lathe Turning Tool Kit

Which I call junk Chinese tools. I have a set bought at auction in a box of other stuff. They are carbon steel, the handles are too small. I use the skew when I am working down close to the chuck and might slip and hit the chuck.

Freshly sharpened, these tools do very well and for making odd shaped tools, as angled for cutting a spigot, or angled for cutting a recess, they are fine.

Also good for learning how to grind as opposed to grinding off an inch of Sorby, etc. tool.

For hogging out a 12 inch bowl 6 inches deep, not so good.

Good to hear from you Paul.
I use a P & N skew chisel, and it is better than my HT or the Sorby one. On the quality of Chinese turning tools and drill bits they vary. I offer a resharpening service for friends and one mate brought around a set of blunt Chinese drill bits he bought as good quality. I did the job and the next day he rang and said my job was no good as they stopped drilling. I invited him to bring them to my shop, I resharpened one of his, and one of my P & N of the same size and then let him go on the drill press with both drills. His drill did 7 holes, and was blunt, my P & N was still going at 20. Nuff said.
The big problem with Chinese made stuff is you can't predict the quality till you buy them and then try them out. The other problem with them is they are now dumping crap that is Titanium coated, but once you wear through the coating its all over.
Rgds,
Crocy.

I agree with Old Croc above. The cheap Chinese stuff sold here by Harbor Freight has a replacement guarantee, but the buyer must do the quality control and tuning.

Some of their stuff is quite serviceable for my purposes, some is not. Their big C clamps are fine because they can be inspected and a good one selected.

I would hope that P & N would do quality control if they are going to have stuff made in China.

An old US maker of measuring equipment, Starrett - est. 1880, is having stuff made in China and the quality has slipped according to people who use such equipment. On the Practical Machinist forum when young folks ask about what to buy, there are told to buy old Starrett or new Mitutoyo.

I think Starrett is cutting their throat.

We have Apple iPod, iPhone, etc. assembled in China from parts from all over. Seemingly good products, that cost way more than I am willing to pay.

Where Are iPods & iPhones Made?

My Samsung cell phone cost $9.95. It makes phone calls, texts, emails, and a lot more that I will never use.