Can anyone tell me if and where they have purchased taps for making wood threads, prefferably in the Melbourne area.
Considering an upgrade on the work bench and like the idea of wooden vices
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Can anyone tell me if and where they have purchased taps for making wood threads, prefferably in the Melbourne area.
Considering an upgrade on the work bench and like the idea of wooden vices
seen them at carbatec
Yeap. Stu said he got them at carbatec when he did his video on the subject.
Thread boxes can be quite expensive. If you don't fancy splashing out on a set, I might be able to help you. I can thread 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" however, I don't lend tools, but I'd gladly thread your vice components for you.
Thanks guys for the quick replies.
Will have a look at Carbi tec
WW thankyou for the offer. Will see how i go
One problem with timber threaded vices/clamps is getting enough torque onto the threads for the vice/clamp to hold without snapping the threads or the threaded rod. So, if you want to use wooden threaded vices I would recommend using at least 2" diam threads and using a tough interlinked grain timber. All the box cutter sets I have seen stop at 1.5" which will probably be OK for a small vice, 2" threads will probably need to be turned on a lathe.
The next problem is that timber on timber can bind on the a) threads and b) on the loading faces. a) requires smooth threads (not consistent with tough interlinked grain timber) and a regular waxing and b) requires some sort of bearing. I have used polyethylene successfully but it does creep under constant use and needs replacement every now and then.
I cut my threads quite tight to begin with and then work the thread back and forth to lightly compact the threads. If you start out with normal thread tightness the compacting and wear makes them slopply very quickly. Also watch out for moisture problems. For tapping some sort of lube is recommended. I use PBLO which also slightly swells the timber so I tap the holes first and then let the timber dry before matching the thread otherwise it will seem too tight and there is a tendency to thread the rod too small.
I'm not trying to put you off - I love wooden threaded stuff - just trying to highlight some of the problems for load bearing threads
Bob, I think the problems you describe are related; roughly cut threads can lead to, what in metal-working terms are called, 'risers' where stresses in the areas of flaws cause failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
With the traditional type of ' thread box' (that Carpet Heck sell), the threads often turn out less than ideal no matter how well the V-cutter is sharpened and honed. Wood species choice does contribute to the final quality of threads.
I have used traditional thread boxes in the past for threading Beech and Walnut press stanchions, but I now have the Beall system which cuts the threads with a router bit and as a consequence, the threads are beautifully formed with a smooth, flawless surface. This fine finish results in much stronger threads.
My own face vice employs twin 1-1/5" Merbau screws in conjunction with Vic Ash 'nuts' which frankly, see a fair bit of abuse. The surfaces of the screws are dense and polished through the merest application of wax and work extremely well.
In use, I often wind the vice chop out a nominal amount and then just use the RH end of the vice and the RH screw as you would any vice. I would have no hesitation in recommending 1-1/2" wood screws for even a single screw vice.
Merbau is a coarse-grained timber and as the threads seemingly hold up well in it, there shouldn't be any issues cutting threads with the Beall unit in similar or closer-grained timber.
I've still got another bit of Merbu here that could do another wood screw. :cool:
By sheer coincidence I spent the weekend having some big screws! The wooden kind, of course. :;
Bob, I agree with you 100% that 2" screws are the most suitable for vises, but I think you may be being excessively fussy about fit. However, maybe your experience is different from mine. I've been a wooden thread enthusiast since I first 'discovered' them about 30 years ago, and have used them a lot for clamps and tail vises. The screw in my own bench has done yeoman service for at least 23 years, despite having 3 big moves to quite different climates in that time & shows no sign of wear. I always try for a neat, but easy fit - takes a bit of experience & knowing your woods & how they are likely to behave with the moisture cycles, but there seems to be a fair tolerance range. One thing I would advise is to avoid the temptation to over-lubricate them both when cutting & in use. Once a year or so, give them a wire-brushing, apply a good wax polish & then polish it dry. My tail vise screw is a chunk of Rosewood (Brazilian - might seem like sacrilige, but it's a long story, & it makes a lovely screw! :U) which gave a fine & slightly oily surface. There are several woods here in Aus that work beautifully, my favourite to date being Bull Oak (C. leuhmanii), but Belah (C. cristata) is also very good - both damned hard to dry in the sort of sizes you need for bench screws, unfortunately. Lots of others work well, however (see below!) and Frank Weisner, a wise old craftsman from Europe uses Vic. Ash successfully, despite its (to me) very fibrous nature. I have no problems with strength - you would be flat-out stripping a well-made thread, & I've won bets with my 3/4" handscrews that you can't strip them (of course snapping the compression screw by tightening off-parallel is another matter). I regularly lean on my tail vise screw very hard, & so far it has copped all I could throw at it.
And I'm 100% with Woodwould that traditional threadboxes are useless with most of our over-hard woods - the router method is the way to go. My carbide bit has cut many metres of clean threads in woods (like Bull oak) that would simply destroy a thread-box. But don't squander your hard-earned on the grossly overpriced commercial product - you can make your own for nothing in 10 minutes.
Here are the screws I made over the weekend - been saving a few choice bits, & had a recent windfall (literally!) of river oak (C. cunninghamii). From the left they are River. oak (quite good to turn & thread & should be durable - supposedly the preferred wood for bullock yokes) next is Bull oak, the cleanest & toughest of all I've tried - have had some bar clamps with Bull oak screws for about 20 years & they have held up very well. The next is Brigalow (A. harpophylla). Lovely to turn (nice smell!) & threads beautifully, but have done a couple of Brigalow screws in the past that had the nasty tendency to lose big chunks of thread for no apparent reason - I hope it was just the particular tree or piece.
The next (pale one) is 'Idunno' wood, but may be Moreton Bay Ash (E. tesselata). It is a bit of a 4x4 veranda post that came off the house a year ago when the new deck was added. Turned & threaded nicely, & should be ok.
The last is Ironbark - not sure which particular one, as it was given to me, but probably western silver-leaf. Mongrel stuff to turn - picks out even with razor-sharp tools, but threaded ok, & should be a good user.
My 4c.
:D
Very nice work (as per usual) Ian. I really must get to grips with more Aussie timbers. Is that Bull Oak a relatively common timber, or is it one of those go-for-a-drive-with-a-chainsaw timbers?
I've actually had better results on previous occasions with homemade metal-type taps and dies than I've had with traditional screw boxes.
The Beall units are overkill, but mine fell into my lap at a time when I wanted to make screws for my own vice, so I'm not complaining. They certainly wouldn't be difficult to make oneself as you say.
Hi WW. The latter, I'm afraid. The (not very big) tree has a wide, but patchy distribution in inland eastern Aust, in the 400-800mm rainfall zone. My stock (now virtually exhausted) came from two downed trees, one of which was killed by lightning, which caused a few splits & shakes in the wrong places. But even fresh trees (which in most states you are not supposed to fell) are hard to dry in large chunks. Worked into handles, it is just the best stuff outside of good Rosewood (Dalbergias, that is) I have handled. A bit tougher to turn cleanly, but it will peel nicely if you keep the skew ultra-sharp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodwould
Of all the woods I have ever tried (too many to name) Apple wood is far & away the very best. It turns like butter & takes flawless threads, but is as tough as they come. I've got a pair of handscrews made from Apple & I reckon they'll last several more generations yet. If you could get hold of Apple wood in benchscrew sizes you couldn't go wrong, IMO. It will even cut ok with threadboxes, too.
Don't know about using metal type dies, but I guess they might work on some woods. The taps are fine as long as they have a good taper, though the taps in general use are too fine for my liking. I like 4tpi for anything over 1.5" diameter, but NC/Whitworth in that size are 6tpi. I'm lucky to have a very good (& valuable!) friend who is a dab-hand on the metal lathe & has made me several, including my grandfather of a 2", which takes two people to drive through a piece of hardwood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodwould
I don't mean to knock the Beall threader - it does the job well & is easier to set up than a home-made jig, but it seems to me to cost a lot more than it orter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodwould
On the subject of setting-up - it can be a fiddly job. I save bits of likely-looking wood to try threading, & generally have a session once a year or so. But when I get the router set up & cutting a really nice thread, I'm reluctant to un-hitch it for other jobs. That's just one of the reasons I have 3 routers, I suppose, and why there were 6 bench screws made last weekend......:D
Actually, I have places planned for each of them
I agree, Apple is wonderful stuff for all sorts of jigs and tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
Note I said metal-type taps and dies. Metal threading taps and dies are, for the most part, unsuitable for wood threading until you get up into some of the coarser BSW sizes (1-1/2" x 6 TPI, 1-3/4" x 5 TPI and 2" x 4-1/2 TPI) when all of a sudden they're quite appealing. I haven't used actual metal-threading taps and dies, but taps and dies made from these sizes of BSW nuts and bolts which I modified for cutting wood threads very successfully. I tried to find single 2" BSW nuts and bolts to make my vice screws (prior to landing the Beall tools), but couldn't find them for sale anywhere in Australia in less than multi hundred dollar packs.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
Ian
I would like to make up a jig to do some wood threads both large and small. I would much appreciate any details you have (photo's, sketches etc) of the router jigs you mention in this thread, If you are able to provide.
Regards
Hi Basilg - I'm not ignoring you - just a bit flat-out at the moment. Somewhere in the dark corners of my computer I think I have a pdf which is a tutotial on woodthreading - it has a few sketches & instructions on making the jig. I will see if I can find it & post it. In the meantime, there is a bit of a how-to in this thread from some time ago, it might be enough for you to get started?Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilg
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...reading+router
Cheers,
Ian
Don't burst a boiler as I am not in a tearing hurry, but your cooperation is much appreciated.
Regards
Just an update on how im faring.
Have purchased a 48mm nut and bolt.
Will soon acquire one alittle larger in the next day or two.
Have all but completed a turning box. Drill driven, with either a router for shaping or hand plane. Saw it on youtube once and now cant find it again. Twas a japanese guy turning spindles with hhis hand plane as the shaper and powered by a drill, clamped in place.
Might get a chance to make some sawdust on the weekend if i can sneak out.:U:U:U:U
Cool! :cool: Make a bunch of photoes too. Sounds really interesting.:2tsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIPPERS
Ok I didnt have as much time in the shed as I would have liked.
Though I was able to keep things progressing alittle.
Have threaded some vic ash in readiness for the router jig to thread yet to be turned blanks.
Asyou can see its a rather large bolt. Now all i have to do is turn a blank
Looks like it made a nice, clean thread Shippers. I notice you don't seem to have much taper on the bolt 'tap' - must have been fun trying to start it??
Cheers,
It wasnt so tough starting as it was to keep going.
The Vic Ash put up alittle resistance.
I first did a test on some WA Karri which was only 20mm thick and i reckon it took me twice as long.
You are right though the thread is nice and clean without any chipping:2tsup:
Ian
Have you tried succesfully to make a bolt from laminated stock
I ask because I think it may be difficult to locate some of the timbers i want in the size required
Hi Shippers, no, I haven't ever done that. There is no particular reason that I can see why it shouldn't work successfully. I would use a non-creeping glue like epoxy, & be very careful to get my joins dead on. You're right, it's hard to get really good chunks of sound, dry, suitable wood in the sizes you need for 2" bench screws, which is why I hoard anything I come across very greedily! :;Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIPPERS
A word of advice (though you will probably have figured this out yourself) - when you make your threading jig, practice on some scrap for a bit until you have the thread starting nicely, and the bit in just the right spot at the right depth to cut the land. If you get a wonky thread that goes thick & thin, the bit needs to be moved a touch forward or back. Once you get it threading nicely, cut a few turns of good thread on a short piece & keep that to help you set up the depth & position of the bit next time. I also knifed a line around the router base on my big jig, which helps to reposition it with minimum mucking about.
Cheers,
IW
Thanks Ian,
Im sure your advice will be spot on again.
There will be quite a few practice runs with crapiata pine just to get it right, then a couple with some scrap vic ash.
I have quite abit of the WA Karri that I can laminate:2tsup:.
Haven't tried Karri, so can't comment, but if you can get a good thread on it (i.e. it doesn't chip) it should be good. I've only threaded a few smaller bits of it, but I reckon Brush box should be a good wood for big screws - I understand that's available at recycle yards down your way, though not sure what sizes you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIPPERS
Cheers,
Ian,
I had a bit of a play today.
Turned a blank on a spindle jig of sorts. ( pics to follow )
Then had a go at making a thread. ( pics to follow )
Havent quite got the router position right just yet.
Also need to check that my blank was uniform.
Had trouble feeding it more than 100mm
I am certainly bouyed by the outcome though.
Gives confidence to proceed further.:U:2tsup:
Hi Shippers - yes, sounds like the cutter position is a bit off - either too far forward or too far back by a smidgin - you can work it out with a very careful caliper measurement, but I can usually figure it out by eye. It's alao possible you have the cutter too deep or too shallow, though that should be obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIPPERS
The blank doesn't have to be uniform so much as a loose fit. You can have a pretty scrappy blank to start with, bit if the cutting process is set up well, it will turn out looking surprisingly good.
Keep at it - it will suddenly fall into place & you'll be up & running. The only problem is that when you get it cutting perfrectly, you'll be reluctant to dismantle the router - you may have to go buy another..... :; :U
Cheers,
Edit: Actually, having re-read your post, I'm thinking the problem may be the blank is too tight & binding - if it's a cutter out of position problem, it usually binds after a few turns - if you're going 100mm it must be pretty close, depending on how many threads are in your jig. Did you drill a test hole & a piece of scrap & test for a loose fit all along the blank? It's better that running calipers long, because they often don't pick up unevenness.
Ok here is the first attempt.
Pic 1 shows the turning jig i made that can either be cranked by hand or attatch a drill as a power driver.
Pic 2 is another shot of the turning jig
Pic 3 is the half way mark, a 45mm blank
Pic 4 is starting to make a thread on the threading jig
Pic 5 is a thread approx 100mm long:2tsup:
Had a bit more of a go today.
Made a new threading jig.
Thought I would make it longer and wider to allow for better clamping and to give the router more of a base to sit on.
I got the positiong of the router pretty much spot on.
Some of the threads chiped away. I put it down to the timber and not the jig because the threads look to be quite uniform and the chipping occurs more often on one side.
And if you are wondering, I have fixed the router to the jig with srews instead of clamping, now when i need to position the router again all i have to do is align the srew holes
Great thread - no pun intended... honest.
I've been following this one because I want to put a wooden vice on the end of my bench, but I've come across two major problems. First I don't have a lathe, or money or time to set one up, so I need to work out a way to do blanks, second I don't want to spend hundreds on thread boxes or router kits.
So first question, Shippers, the turning jig you made, is that like a lathe, but smaller? So you use that to turn the blank?
Second, the carbide router tips, what are they called and where do you get them.
I forgot to mention the third problem - How to set up the handle end of the blank to stay in the front plate of the vice - I'm sure I saw a brief explanation somewhere, but now I can't find it - I thought it might have been a discussion between IanW and Woodwould..?
Finally, I found the instruction videos on Beall really useful in explaining how to adjust the router to get the bit deep enough and in the right place. It really helped seeing him setting it up to understand what you and IanW are talking about.
Rhancock sorry its taken awhile to get back to you.
The jig i made was a copy of one i saw on utube. If you do a search for wooden bolts on google you will find a link to a utube site that shows a japanese guy doing some fantastic stuff. Anyway, to hold the blank i used threaded rod, pretty much any size will do. I threaded one end of the blank and on the other end i used the same threaded rod only this one is tappered to a point to allow the blank to free spin.
You just have to figure out your own way of stabilising the rod pins to stop them moving laterally. I used a series of neoprene nuts for this purpose. You might be able to make it out in the pics i have previously postered. The only consideration on the depth and width of the jig is based on the pre turned blank size. Of all this i found the real tricky part was acurately locating the rod holes on the jig so they were even from the top of the jig where the router sits. if they are not then the rod you end up with will have a taper on it.
Regards
Shippers
And Richard, to answer your question on the source for a suitable router bit:
The only source I know of is LV. The bit in the Beall threading kit is available separately - bit exy at 23.50 US$, (like the rest of the Beall stuff) but it is carbide & will cut a mile or two of thread for you. Look here:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...91&cat=1,43000
I have occasionally seen 60 degree 'veining' bits at woodshows, but can't remember who had them - possibly Carbitool.
Alternatively, you can take an old or busted 1/4" drill & regrind it to a 60 degree point. This works fine, that's all I had when I started out, but it dulls quickly in hard siliceous woods & you will need to sharpen it after each run. The angle is quite easy to grind by eye - a degree or two either way of a perfect 60 is neither here nor there in this application.
Cheers,
Fantastic thread !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rhancock
On his book Router Magic, Bill Hylton called the jig as Dowel-Turning Jig. :2tsup: I guess I'll make one before proceeding with wood threading.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/664...kingjig.th.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5...ingjig2.th.jpg
and
FYI, from the last chapter of the book, here's the picture of an actual Router LATHE....,
I wonder whether it might be used for wood threading :roll:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3...erlathe.th.jpg
Rhancock, would you please post the link for the instruction video ?Quote:
Originally Posted by rhancock
SHIPPERS, IanW and everyone...., Thanks for the great thread on Wood Threading :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:
http://www.bealltool.com/instructions.phpQuote:
Originally Posted by hcim
Love the pictures of the router lathe
deleted post wrong thread