14" carcass saw or 12" carcass saw

I want to get a carcass saw (x-cut) and I was thinking of getting a 14" saw rather than a 12" saw because my stroke tends to go back to near the tip of the toe (on the back stroke) when using my Grandad's 12" back saw and occasionally I "tip out" if you know what I mean.

But I have never used a 14" saw and am not sure. Should I tend to a longer saw or just stick with a standard 12" saw and learn to adjust my stroke and style.

Any feedback on the use and benefits or bad points about using a longer backsaw for x-cuts.

I will mainly use it on small projects like entrance table, small side tables and I will be making some study desks for my boys. Cutting tennon shoulder and for defining grooves and the like.

What I was thinking of was 14" and 2 1/4" depth of cut with 14 ppi.

But any feedback on the difficulty or not in using a saw like this would be appreciated.

Thanks

My carcase saw is by Eccentric Toolworks, is 11" long, and 14 ppi crosscut. I use this for tenon shoulders.

It is long enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Rob,

I made a 14" carcase saw and liked it much more than the 12". I don See any disadvantage. It is more a question of taste.



Cheers Pedder
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56...+jackson+1.jpg

Hi Rob,

As Pedder says it can be a matter of personal preference, I like the longer 14".

Traditionally, carcass saws ranged from 10" to 14" and around 12ppi is good.

Regards
Ray

I think you should go for the size you like to use most. The variety of sizes, shapes & tooth pitches of small saws is testament to both the wide variety of tastes as well as the variety of tasks they suit. Comfort & control are my main criteria when selecting a saw for any job - the cut quality tends to follow naturally from these.

I'm a smaller saw person, myself. I have a 14 incher which sits in the toolbox for months at a time. For general carcase work I find a 12" 12 tpi and a 10" 15tpi to be my 'go-tos', with a bias towards the 10 incher - it's such a comfortable & controllable tool when used with a bench-hook.

I second Derek - if you are 'tipping out' (a good term for it!) you probably do need to adjust your stroke & rythmn - how would you be with an 8" dovetailer? :;
Cheers,

Thanks for all your input.

Pedder and Ray...how does the 14" work with small work or just shoulder on say table legs or cabinet door frames? Is it bit unwieldy?

Ian...For smaller saws I just saw smaller:q. Actually, I just adjust. I am pretty good at adjusting as I have had to get by with whatever I had in the past. but since I am getting news saws I might as well start out right.

Here's the thing, I have Japanese saws and have been using them for a long time now so I haven't had a lot of experience with different length and setup western saws for a long time. but last year I got hold of my grandfather's 12" back saw. It was a bit warped and needed some work but I got it straightened out and had a go at sharpening it. It was a 13ppi x-cut with 3" deep blade. I ended resharpening as a rip saw. This was for practice since it was my first time. rip is easier.

Also, I wanted to see what it was like using a western saw again. learnt with western saws. Mainly using Japanese saws now as I am in Japan. Anyway, I like the action, but I don't have a lot of experience with western saw of late, so I wanted some feedback and comment from others.

I suppose one of the things I am wondering about is; would the longer saw be a bit unwieldy for smaller work, which will be my main focus. I have been practicing dovetails on 15mm stock with the 12" 13ppi saw I have and maybe I have just been trying to do full strokes. But I like the 12" blade for cutting dovetails.

My Japanese saws have shorter blades actually. My dovetail is only 210mm. which is 8". I use it no worries.

Anyway thanks for the feedback.

Rob

Rob

you may care to browse Chris Schwarz's saw bog Woodworking blog Woodworking Magazine - Saws

G'day Ian,

Thanks for the link but I have checked it out already and have been watching it for a few years. Interesting stuff and Chris is a kind guy ready to answer emails and questions. Helped with some details with my bench.

I haven't thought too much about the make up of saws until recently; when I saw Derek's post about his new saw from Mike Wenzloff. I have had some saws on order for about 3 years so I suppose I was thinking that maybe something might happen and I should start thinking again. But I have yet to get a reply from Mike, so maybe I shouldn't worry too much. Just wanting to get other people's thoughts.

Actually, getting feedback on using and the feel of saws is quite difficult on the forums. You make a post about planes or chisels or benches and you get tons of replies and opinions and arguments and sidetracks and so on. very popular subjects.
Yet other than what kind of saw to use, I don't seem to get much of a bite about saws. the best articles have been by Chris actually.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

By the way, how are peoples' saws coming along; the ones that purchased all the blade and brass back material? Heard any about any results. It sounds like it could have been an interesting propositions if I were in Oz. But shipping the materials and buying the equipment needed here would make a saw about the same as a custom saw anyway.:o

Take care, and have a good one,
Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobTro

............Actually, getting feedback on using and the feel of saws is quite difficult on the forums. You make a post about planes or chisels or benches and you get tons of replies and opinions and arguments and sidetracks and so on. very popular subjects.
Yet other than what kind of saw to use, I don't seem to get much of a bite about saws. the best articles have been by Chris actually.

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Rob - I think it's really hard to generalise about saws, so you need to post a specific question or make a specific observation if you want to get more bites. I think saws are much more complex than planes or chisels, because there are more variables, or at least a greater range within the variables. They are still on the "too mysterious" list for many woodies, plus the ascendancy of carbide saw blades over the last 30 years or so has greatly diminished the need for handsaws in many sheds & workshops. The blades you can get now, at quite reasonable prices, are a far cry from the steel blades of yore, and way better than the early carbide monstrosities, so many folks find they can do all they need with them. Handsaws intimidate those who haven't 'grown-up' with them.

If you've been following threads in this section over the last year or two, you'll know I've been mucking about with saw making a bit, which has given me a few insights, the main one being that I am just starting to learn a bit about saws! Though I've always been a handsaw user, & been pretty comfortable with the larger variety (including those 8ft long beasts :C), thanks to my father, I confess to being pretty casual about the smaller variety for most of the 40 years or so that I've owned small backsaws of various pedigrees, & fiddled with sharpening them. The results of my ministrations were pretty variable, & often miserable! Making saws has caused me to take a much more analytical look at them, especially tooth profiles & pitches & what each size & tooth pitch does best.

You started this thread by asking what size is best, which implied you only wanted to buy one saw & use that for all handsawing operations. I could probably do everything with a single saw, but not well, & certainly not as easily as when I can choose the one best suited to the job in hand. The size really matters to me - if I'm cutting accurate dovetails & especially the pins, I want a narrow saw that I can easily sight either side of. The material is usually thin, & I want at least 4 or 5 teeth in the cut, but not too many or too small, because they clog with sawdust & cause slow cuting & saw wander. Since most cuts for this operation are ~18mm or less deep, It needs little set. I cut most d'tails in hardwoods, which need (on average) less set than softwoods. This operation definitely goes best for me with a small, finely-set saw, with fine tooth pitch (but not too fine - 15tpi is a good all-round choice for me).

On the other hand, for average carcase work, where the cuts are much wider, & often much deeper, a longer, wider saw, with fewer tpi is much more comfy - fewer teeth mean bigger gullets to carry the sawdust out of the longer cut, & keep the saw cutting efficiently. The wider blade means it needs to be a bit thicker for stiffness, so the whole thing is bulkier & heavier, but that's fine 'cos it cuts nicely under its own weight & the majority of cuts you make are straight/square cuts, so it's comfy to use & relatively easy to be accurate.

Then you can start thinking about what height you normally saw at. If you use the saw most at bench height (on a 'bench-hook' for e.g.) a handle that is cranked up a bit allows both a more comfortable grip and prevents the handle from hitting the bench top. If you saw higher up, like when I'm cutting dovetails, with the piece clamped to the side of the bench & sticking well up where my chronologically-challenged eys can see them, a handle that is more vertical allows a more relaxed grip, & it doesn't matter that it extends down below the tooth-line a bit, because it's not going to catch anything up there in the air.

Tooth pitch & rake are almost infinitely variable - as an experienced saw user, I can tolerate a more aggressive rake & coarser pitch than someone not used to pushing saws. The cut is quicker, but less-easily controlled. Set is another widely variable factor - less set means less wood to remove, but at the expense of the saw being less easily 'steered' & more likely to bind in softer woods (especially fibrous softwoods). If I were making a saw for a beginner to use, I would give it less rake & more set than my own to do the same tasks.

So if you wanted a saw that is 'best' for every situation, you could soon end up with 50 backsaws, which would be ridiculous, unless you are primarily a collector, so lots of compromise is necessary. After wandering all over the planet with sizes, pitches, set & rake, I've settled on a relatively small number of saws as I said in my first post. These cover the bulk of sawing situations well, for me, but are unlikely to suit someone else as well.

There - there's some more feedback for you. The problem with us weekend warriors is that we over-analyse everything. Unfortunately, although you can ask others' opinions, the only way to find out what you really need is to dive in somewhere & make a start. Despite the thinking & planning I've done over the years, I have rarely managed to buy the exact right tool the first time...

It's a pity it's so hard to get the saw-making material where you are, because if you could get into making some saws for yourself, I'm sure you would find it helpful & a quick learning process. Cutting (& often recutting!) many sets of teeth has allowed me to experiment & get a much better handle on the variables, & taken a lot of the fear & mystery out of the whole process, for me. And it's great therapy! It sure takes your mind off other things when you are squinting at a set of tiny teeth and a file through a magnifying loupe & trying to keep everything dead even & straight & symmetrical.... :U

Avagooday,

Thanks for the info Ian.

Just for the sake of others that might be thinking about similar things...I am thinking of a set of at least three saws -
- Tennon 14" 3 to 3 1/2" deep cut, with 10ppi
- Dovetail 9" 1 1/2" deep cut, with 15ppi
- Carcass saw 14" about 2" deep cut, with 14ppi (or 12" - my original post)

and maybe a smaller dovetail saw at 8", 1 1/2" deep with 20ppi (just thinking)

With the tennon saw and the dovetail saw I have a choice of which to use for different situations. But with only one cross cut saw I will have to use it for everything. I was mainly thinking in my initial post about 14" being a bit long when using it for small tennon shoulder and small pieces. I can see that 12" might be better for small work but longer might be more versatile.

I have Japanese saws but they are set up for softwood. I have been using them with the hardwood that I have (ironwood - VERY hard) and have lost a couple teeth on one. Since getting hold of my Grandfather's backsaw I have been practicing, and my grandfathers saw, even with my attempts at sharpening, is a lot better suited (for me) for cutting the hardwoods I have been using.

This is why I am wanting to get western saws - for working with hardwoods.

Quesion- is a saw setup for very hard wood like ironwood and jarah much different to a set up for say walnut or oak?

Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobTro

Quesion- is a saw setup for very hard wood like ironwood and jarah much different to a set up for say walnut or oak?
Rob

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Rob - not sure what species you are talking about when you say 'Ironwood' as I know of at least 4 species in quite different families that go by that common name, & probably none of them are what you mean. Compared to Jarrah & most of out hardwoods, the hardwoods of temperate climates are pretty soft, but IMO, this would not necessarily alter the way you set up your saws too much. In my experience, hardwoods seem to require less set than sofwoods (& I'm talking broadleaf vs conifer) because they cut more 'crisply'. I happen to have quite a bit of Cherry & Walnut, & I tried my saws out on some. Saws that chewed happily through some Blue-gum I was using as a test piece, cut through them like butter......

Cheers,

Hi Ian, Rob,

I suspect Rob means Ironbark, and yes it is pretty tough stuff, I remember turning a bowl out of some really hard dry Ironbark, I swear there were sparks coming off the chisel.

Back to saw filing, it's a great area for speculation and research, I'm sure it's all been done before, and knowledge lost in the mists of time. Little by little it appears to be being re-discovered.

Japanese filing is something I don't really understand, there is a discussion going on over on Woodcentral with interesting observations on back bevels. You can do back bevels with western saws by sloping the gullets. Good research topic for someone to persue.

Heiji saw *PIC*

Ian has a quite detailed discussion on saw design here... Thoughts on Saw Design

I have had similar experiences to you with respect to japanese saws, I remember a cheap dozuki, (the type with induction hardened teeth) One pass over some hardwood and I was left with a little pile of teeth and a smooth saw.., I am assuming it was my poor technique and a not so good example of a japanese saw. The japanese saw filing for hardwood and softwood, The ibara-me (softwood) and nezumi-ba (hardwood), would be interesting teeth to look at...

Regards
Ray

Thanks, I will check out the links and discussions.

The wood I was refering to is Ulin and from what I know, it is near the top of the harness scale. Harder than Ipe and Quite a bit harder than Jarah. This is the janka scale used for flooring.

Will have a read of the other threads

Rob

Hi Rob - as I suspected, you were talking about a wood I'd not heard of before (though looking at the pics & its distribution, I reckon I've probably seen quite a bit of stuff made from it in my travels). It sounds like it's hard alright, but must be reasonably workable to judge by the intricate carvings on some of the stuff I found with Google. I can now add Eusideroxylon zwageri to the list of woods called "Ironwood".

Anyway, on to the real issue. As I said, I have just begun serious consideration of saw teeth, & so I have more theories than proven methods at this point. I fear there is more to learn about this subject than I have years left to me, but it's fun & I learn new things all the time. While I can shape & sharpen saw teeth to a reasonable standard, I know I'm a long way from home, yet. It's not difficult to cut tooth profiles that cut very quickly - the art is in balancing all the compromises to get a saw that cuts as quickly as possible, but is still easy to control in a variety of woods & situations & doesn't need resharpening every 10 minutes. Small saws are always called on to fill both rip & crosscut roles to some extent, and I don't like having a zillion tools cluttering up the place (which always seem to need sharpening at the one time!), which is why I've been fiddling with a 'hybrid' tooth profile. This has a bit more rake than a ripsaw, and a bit less fleam than a crosscut. It seems to be a useful set of compromises (for the range of wood I use & what I mostly make). For example, I can do the rip & cross cuts for dovetails well enough with just the one small saw. However, I keep a 300mm 10tpi tenon saw filed as a straight rip, & it comes in mighty handy when ripping anything a bit wider or deeper than the average dovetail. It seems like you can't escape having a few of the damn things hanging around! :U

Enjoy your journey into the mysteries of saw teeth...
Cheers,