The Quick Canoe Thread: Boats, advice, tips. Add your own!

We don't have a dedicated Quick Canoe thread, and it's definitely becoming quite the prolific design for Mik. Please use this thread to post about your own boat, offer advice, tips, or anything else. Please note that there are two interesting threads dedicated to sailing the QC here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/d...-canoe-121449/ and here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/q...stions-122909/

I just built a QC using leftover timber from my GIS project, leftover epoxy for the hull, PL Premium for the keel, and Titebond III for the seats. I purchased three sheets of Sureply vinyl flooring underlayment for $20 a sheet at my local big-box hardware store, and some Rustoleum primer and paint from my local Mom/Pop hardware store. So outlay was 100 dollars, 60 for ply, 40 for paint (I bought a little more than I needed for other projects).

I built this specifically with the Quick Canoe ethic in mind: Built it quickly and cheaply, to get me on the water before it turns hard for the next 5 months. Nights are already 32F/0C on a regular basis. Therefor, limited sanding for cosmetics. Originally I was going to build the whole thing with PL Premium and Titebond III, but I already had extra glue hanging around and fiberglass tape, so I figured I'd use what I have. Waiting for the epoxy to cure added some time to the whole project.

Everything was followed exactly to the plans except: The stiffener under the knees was placed flush with the plywood knee to make for a much more hand-friendly handle. Grab, and go. Also, I made my seats 250mm "wide" (for/aft) instead of 200mm. This meant that the seat supports are in two pieces instead of one to match the curve of the hull. This complicated matters a bit, but it's what I wanted. Also, I'm still experimenting with seat height, though as of now there is the strong possibility that the seats will go to Mik's recommended height.

Here are some pictures. I'm going to fiddle with the skeg to my own personal refinements. As of now, it trucks straight with just a mild J-stroke. It turns "like the Nimitz" as Peteloaf mentioned, but this was after he got out of his Eureka. I like tracking, but I would like a little more spin action, so I'm going to experiment. I urge the builder to start with the plans, and then adjust--carefully-- from there to suit personal preferences.

I like my Quick Canoe! It's quite roomy, stable, cheap, and strong.

The Green One. The other canoe is an unfinished Eureka by Peteloaf. https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/s...eureka-125116/

I still need to weigh it, standby.

PDR311 (Rick in BC who built the QC prototype) was a huge help in budget boatbuilding skills. However, I ended using my epoxy and most of his gluing advice went to waste. So, for the budget builder of the Quick Canoe, I offer Rick's advice here on this post for others to peruse.

All the below unless noted is from a lengthy exchange of PM's with PDR311 (Rick in BC).

On using PL Premium:

If using PL Premium, and no fiberglass at all, you pretty much have to go with chine log construction because it does not fillet with any strength. Not a big deal to plane down timber if you are used to that with your GIS. I used polyester resin and fiberglass for the chines with very good results instead of chine logs. Quick and easy, just messy and stinky.

Chinelog construction makes the polyester redundant unless you are planning on canoeing on rapids or shallow water where frequent groundings are going to occur. Then the fiberglass tape will ensure that the plywood edges stay protected. When these cheapy boats rot out, its always at an unprotected edge.
Make sure you use PL Premium, and not regular construction adhesive. PL is one of the only ones that is a true polyurathane glue. The rest are crap. Gorilla glue and that Elmers polyurathane start off too thin, then bubble like crazy. The construction adhesive is more gap filling and forgiving. Use it like caulk!

Storing PL Premium:

Put a 3" screw in the end of the tube of PL and let it dry. Once it is cured, you can pull on the screw and take the dried plug out. If the plug is too thick, cut the end of the nozzle bigger, or put a slit in the nozzle, remove the plug and duct tape the nozzle back together so the hole on the end is the same size.

Polyester Resin:

It was one layer of fiberglass tape on the outside, and a bondo fillet on the inside. Both sides were coated in fiberglass first, and the tape or fillet put on while it was still wet. I read in one of Paysons books that this will allow the resin to soak into the plywood and create a chemical bond with whatever fiberglass product you put on top and prevent the wood from sucking up all the resin before it bonds.
If I was to build another, (who am I kidding, I am going to build another) I would do it with chine logs and an air stapler. I think this would be quicker than fooling around with the duct tape, but your milage may vary.

I have had good success with the 'Bondo' brand stuff. I would buy it from a fairly busy auto parts store, as you want it fairly fresh. It only has a shelf life of about 12 months before the hardener goes stale. 2 or 3" tape might be harder to find, but is easier than cutting strips off of a bigger piece of cloth. It should go without saying, to lay the fiberglass before the paint. It don't stick to paint at all.
I wet out the chine with the resin, then lay the tape in the wet resin and wet it out again to fill the weave. Then I let it tack up before I hit it with the last coat. Too much resin all at once will 'float' the tape to the surface, making it hard to sand flat. You can always mix up a little more if it needs another coat or two.

I used bondo body filler for the inner chine fillet. I looked at the can and it's called 'Long and Strong' long haired reinforced body filler. Then once that hardened (30 minutes or so) I took off the duct tape on the outside and slopped on the fiberglass resin and tape.

Sureply plywood:

There is a product called 'Superply' or 'Sureply' out there which is sold out of Lowes and Home Depot and some other big box stores in the USA. This stuff is laminated with a waterproof, or at least water resistant glue and should pass a boil test. It retails for about $19.95 a sheet which is about 3 or 4 dollars more than 1/4" exterior, but the finish veneers are usually nicer.
The bigger question should be, 'how long do I plan to have this boat?' If the theme is cheap and semi-disposable, the underlayment ply fits the bill and I have gotten 5 years out of a hull with this construction. Sometimes the fifty bucks difference in the plywood price is well spent if you are planning on keeping the boat indefinately.
If I was using a hundred bucks worth of epoxy, and nice, clear expensive timber, I would not hesitate in spending a little more on the plywood. But of course I used house framing lumber and polyester resin for fiberglass along with PL Premium for the glue, so I could not justify spending over $50 a sheet for the plywood.

Concave bottom panel:

(I had one panel that came in a little concave, now, it's barely noticeable but I was puzzled by it initially)

PDR311: One side of the bottom panel is a little concave? Might want to double check the widths of the upper chine and the spacing of the struts or spacers. I would also check that the ends of the side panels haven't gapped out a bit. The only reason I can think of that would cause the bottom to have the wrong curvature would be incorrect tension where the sides meet the bottom caused by the wrong width along the top.

BOATMIK: My guess is it might be the plywood. It is pretty unusual to get different ends behaving differently.

Sometimes I see this when the widths of the sheer have been wrong and then the sides are pushed out after stitching - but I can't see that in this case - the duct tape is unlikely to be able to exert much pressure.

The other possibility might be something to do with the butt strap locking in some curve, but the whole thing would need to have been bent to make that happen. On the floor it just couldn't.

If you make sure the bottom is flat before the keel is fitted then when the keel is fitted it will be held flat. Or if you haven't glass taped then get the bottom flat before.

Maybe one or two battens on the inside screwed through the bottom on the inside of the boat will push everything back into shape.

I wondered how long it would take before you had a thread on this boat. The Peteloaf Eureka thread blew your cover! You know, you're gonna have to change your blog site where you profess being a sailor first... you seem to be morphing into a boatbuilder right before our eyes (screens, whatever).

I look forward to reading the crazy canoe-paddling antics (whitewater?) that are sure to follow... Good job!

I really like seeing the Eureka and the Quick Canoe together.

The QC in some ways is like a pickup (ute in OZ) compared to the more lithe Eureka. But from the right angles the QC looks quite nice - I am very happy with that sheerline.- the truth is that the Quick Canoe starting point was the Eureka sheerline. I then fiddled with the box shape to get the displacement, prismatic coefficient and stability I was aiming at.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...n-img_0187.jpg

Canoe stability is really weird. If you put a deadweight at the centre of gravity of the crew, the boat would flip immediately. But because the human body feedsback and adjusts the whole composite stays upright.

Best wishes
MIK

Tip 1:

DO NOT forget to put down the packaging tape either side of the epoxy bog fillet line when you glue up the sides to bottom inside canoe.

If you do this, be prepared to sand, sand, sand... or are prepared to live with the mess.

:-

Tip 2:

Pay close attention to MIK's suggestion of raising the gunwale timber at the stern and bow so that the deck can lay over the inwale and play side, and butt up to the gunwale. I this to is the most elegant way to build the deck (e.g. efficient and effective).

Dum de dum ...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFT28TnDQ5g]YouTube - Quck Canoe Modified[/ame]

Duckworks Boatbuilders Supply

MIK

I'm planning to build a quick canoe over the Christmas-New Year break, hopefully getting the kids involved too.

I picked up the plywood sheets today, okoume I think, and in 4mm so I'll glass the bottom.

What would be the best way to apply the glass cloth to the bottom? I suppose the glass will go on after the keel batten is fixed but I wonder if it will smoothly lie up and over the sharp corners of the keel. Should it go in two pieces, port and starboard, curving up (down) the side of the keel batten but leaving the top (bottom) of the batten bare? Or am I under-estimating the capacity of glass cloth with epoxy to snugly fit to the short, square profile?

Hi Michael,

The glass should go on before the keel and skeg arrangement.

It only needs to go on the bottom and around the chine by 25mm. Glass can be quite light and still give very light and still give excellent protection. We have found 2 oz is adequate. This equals ((200gsm - wrong - my mistake) 2oz or 70gsm

Best wishes, MIK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boatmik

Hi Michael,

The glass should go on before the keel and skeg arrangement.

It only needs to go on the bottom and around the chine by 25mm. The glass can be quite light and still give very light and still give excellent protection. We have found 2 oz is adequate. This equals 200gsm.
Best wishes, MIK.

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Hi Mik, I disagree with your conversion from ounces to grams.


Answers.com - How to Convert ounces per yard square to grams per square metre


1 oz per square yard = 34 grams per square metre so 2 oz cloth is 68 gsm, the closest metric cloth I see available is 76gsm which is equivalent to about 2.25 oz per square yard.

Ian

Edited to add:
Doh! When in doubt read the instructions:
Plans, page 8 "... Cloths as light as 2 oz (70 gsm) have proven fine..."

Ian beat me to the query on units: my local "Fibreglass and Resin Sales" will sell me some 198 gsm cloth, which they say is about 5.85 oz. They don't have 2 oz cloth as such but guessed it'd be around 70 gsm.

So is 200 gsm the spec?

I get nervous around units that I don't understand so messed around with the calculator. Starting from 200 gsm = 2 oz PER SOMETHING suggested that SOMETHING was "linear foot off a roll one yard wide". Is that the sort of measure that's used somewhere?

(Let 'em start driving on the wrong side of the road and just look at the things they come up with... :no:)


Thanks, Michael.

Howdy, sorry about being confusing - I made an error above - I meant to write 2oz but wrote 200gsm instead.

70gsm/2oz is enough - or as close as you can get to that.

As Ian points out, around the world there is a wide array of available weights - so the idea is not to shoot for exact, but get something close to that. So might be 75 or 72 or 68.

Best wishes
Michael

Hi Mik, do you have any numbers for the weight added to ply by doing your standard 3 coats of epoxy wet on wet without glass, versus covering with 2oz/70gsm cloth plus enough epoxy to fill the weave before going on to painting?

If the bottom of a boat or canoe is two to three square metres, 70gsm cloth only weighs a few hundred grams. Of course the cloth will need more resin to cover than covering with resin alone, but any idea how much more?

Thanks,

Ian

Howdy,

A couple of years ago we were having this discussion on the PDRacer group and one first time boat builder headed off and put some 6 oz glass on a square foot of 6mm Gaboon ply. Kit added about 20% to the weight.

I think I can do better than that, but many can't. Things is the wood is so much lighter than glass or resin.

Also the question is how much glass is really necessary. Lightweighting is a process that is built into the plans. A sixteen foot boat tends pounds lighter than a Laser as you know. There is a real tendency of builders to
1) add a bit of size or thickness thinking it makes the boat "better".
2) think that standard solutions like 6oz glass are the best way.

So I tend to push this area pretty hard. In fact I only really thought about the 2oz glass when I found the relatively huge Jarcat had been using it for decades.

Oops I am climbing in my hobby horse.

My feeling is that with pressure from me that people will find a good direction. Most boats in OZ will not need glass because the landscape is so old website have lots of sandy beaches and regular construction can deal with the occasional rocks that can't be seen. The bottom skids will deal with hard flattish surfaces. Boats that have to sail consistently off rocky beaches need to consider the 2oz glass.

Best wishes, MIK.

Hi Mik, thanks.

I wasn't thinking of putting glass in the bottom of my GIS, and would agree with your dislike of putting 6 oz glass on a ply boat.

I remember some years ago being bemused seeing the final stages of a build of a pigmy or CLC stitch and glue sea kayak in 4m ply, the structure was so beautiful and light before the glass went on, but doubled in weight once the plan specified 6 oz glass went on both inside and out (with two layers along the bottom!)

I'm still curious as to how much weight is added by doing a good job with 2oz glass on the bottom of a light 4mm ply or paulownia strip built canoe or kayak - perhaps you or someone has before and after numbers from your balsa strip canoe or that very lightweight Eureka build a while ago that I think had 3 or 4mm ply with 2 oz glass on the bottom.

Also do you have an opinion on a strength and weight comparison between a canoe or kayak such as your quick canoe in 6 mm ply covered in epoxy without glass or 4mm ply with 2 oz glass?

Thanks,

Ian

Hi Ian,
I don't know specifically for different glass weights beyond knowing the difference between the heft when picking up a glassed vs a non glassed boat and noting that where people do measure weight it seems the weight is somewhat more than straight calcs would suggest. I would probably add about 20 % for a good builder, but an inexperienced builder might be considerably more - maybe up to 50 % for a beginner or someone who thinks more is better.

Also those claiming it "doesn't add much weight" never do a comparison with the weight of the ply alone.

By the time we are up to larger trailer sizes the 6oz glass is looking pretty sensible, but i think the Jarcat example must push that assumption too.

As a result I must admit choosing a practical path of following the best practices I can find.

That's actually how I finally became a designer. By cutting up kits over the Duckflat saw, so I could see the structures of Bolger, Oughtred, Kelsall, Kirby, Farrier and many more.

Happily I have enough basic engineering to be able to interpret and choose the lightest of the reliable structures and to see their commonalities. The biggest step for me was to understand failure modes and how adding a small amount of extra material can avoid them here like plywood glued to timber prevents it from splitting.

The book by j. E. Gordon - the new science of strong materials or why you don't fall through the floor - was pretty important too.

The main thing is if a structure is already minimised then there is less chance that inexperience will add too much extra weight.

If we choose no glass or limght glass an excess of resin has much less effect than if a heavier glass is chosen.

So in a way I am not very interested in actual weights - just best practice.

With boat weight calcs I just use the number of plywood sheets compared to previous boats and add a bit till after the first build as a guide. With bigger boats in just use standard resin to glass ratios.

Best wishes, MIK.