Sharpening from Crosscut to Rip

Hi there!

Green Woodchips seemed an appropriate title. First time writer etc.

I picked up some beaut old handsaws the other week (Disston, Tyzack, S & J, Sanderson) for about $2 each. Well looked after, too.

There's a Disston #4 10" backsaw in there. At the moment, it's set up as a crosscut, with not too much set on it. It's a little blunt, and is due for a sharpening.

I'd like to use it for dovetail work, and so I'm inclined to file it as a rip profile. Help! Do I have to joint all the teeth first, and start again from a blank edge, or what? I don't want much set on it (obviously), so would it just be okay to refile it from where it is, seeing as the teeth are all pretty even and don't really need jointing?

Any advice appreciated. I've looked at just about every sharpening website known to man, and no-one seems to address this question head-on.

Nice to be here.

GW

A big welcome to the BB.

My take is that you will need to do a complete resharpening if you plan to use the #4 for dovetails.

As you know the preferred set up is a rip. And the ideal tool spread is probably about 15 tpi. If you attempt to refile the #4 (10" is a nice size but 12-13 tpi crosscut?), then you will end up with larger teeth. This is also because crosscut and rip teeth are different in their angles forward, with rip having a vertical front face.

What saw set do you plan to use? Most cannot handle greater than 12 tpi.

Nice saws.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh, a ps

Have you tried:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/f...y/library.html

http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/42_disston_index.html

Regards again

Derek

Hi Derek.

Thanks for your advice; I know you're a respected voice on this BB. As to the links, I'd seen the first, but not the second. Again, thanks.

As it happens, this saw, although set up for cross-cutting, is currently running at about 15tpi. That being the case, would it be enough to mill off, say, half of the profile, and then (using the remaining grooves as a guide) file in a new set of ripping teeth?

If you think I need to completely take the saw back to a blank face, then I will trust your expertise. Also... what sized file for a 15tpi saw? 6" Double Extra Slim?

Regards,
GW

GW

Ideally you need to refile the teeth from scratch. This is probably a job for your friendly, local saw doctor. It is a lot of work. Even then the saw is likely to be returned with too much set. I recall that LN use about 3/1000th of an inch set on the Independence. I really am not high on experience here, but I have done a couple. Most recently I sharpened and set a dovetail saw (a 8" John Cotterill) and this turned out better (!) than my LN Independence. I used an Eclipse No.77, which is rated only for 12 tpi, but this seemed to work very well. Perhaps the settings are not accurate. Compared to the LN it does not cut quite so aggressively, but it has as fine a kerf and a touch more control. Anyway, you will likely need to stone down the set on a "professionally" sharpened saw. This simply involves running each side once along a diamond stone, testing the saw, running it once again, testing the cut, and so on. Remember, you can't replace set, only remove it.

What I would do with your crosscut blade is keep the teeth as is (crosscut) and stone off the set. You have nothing to lose since you are expecting to remove all the teeth anyway. You may find that you can reduce the set until the saw is cutting a tight kerf (which is where the control comes from). Crosscut will still cut dovetails, just more slowly. Reducing the set will increase both the speed and control.

What do you think?

If you plan to refile the blade to 15 tpi rip, then you will need to get a 4" double extra slim file (a 6" double extra slim will only be good for 11 tpi). These are not available in Australia, as far as I am aware. You can order them from Vintage Saws, who stock Sandvik files. Check out their website.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek.

Thanks for your well-considered advice. Having just hastily purchased some X-Slim Coopers brand files from Bunnies (!), I am duly chastised, and shall instead pay a visit to my local saw guy, asking him to create new teeth, but not to put any set on them. This would be a good exercise for me to learn.

This will probably take a few weeks to get around to, but I'll let you know the end result.

As a 'thank you' here's a nice story about one man and his dovetail saw... you've probably seen it already:

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/geyer/dtsaw.htm

By the way... your name? If my Hebrew is correct 'Derek Cohen' = 'Way of the Priest'. The great high priest of timberwork, perhaps?

Warm regards from the East Coast,
Green Wodchips

Nicholson sell a Double Extra thin file so most hardware stores would be able to order one in for you.

They are said to be good for 13 - 16 tpi.


Intersting thread guys. I've been keeping my eye on it. ;)


I bought an Adria hand saw for my father at the Melb WW show, and had read that they require a DET file for sharpening, and had no idea what that meant. :o


Ben.

Thanks Ben.

I have one of those Nicholson's. It is a 6", not a 4", file. While you can use this to touch up teeth (as I have done), the smaller files get into the gullets better.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi GW

Thanks for the article. Yes, I have read it before. It is both a nice reality check when it comes to tools and also a bit of an inspiration to improve and enjoy the ones you have.

I don't know about "High Priest". I am just an enthsiastic amateur, learning like everyone else and happy to pass on what little experience I have gathered. According to my sister, who seriously researches the family tree, she managed to trace back about 800 years or so (no kidding) of serious rabinical heritage. Unfortunately for future lines, it halted with me :) . I suppose a cynic would say that, as a shrink in my daytime job, I continue this in a modern disguise. I get very restless and this form of writing is a therapeutic change from the many clinical reports I have to do each day. So I thank everyone for their patience when I gush. Perhaps I should pay a fee for this :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

Quote:

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

So I thank everyone for their patience when I gush. Perhaps I should pay a fee for this :D

---

Derek,

You must be just too busy to attend to sending me a fee, so just send me your bank account details and I'll fix it up myself. :D :D :D

Don't worry about gushing, your posts are always interesting.


Peter.

Thanks Peter. The cheque is in the mail.

Regards from Perth

Derek

GW

I recently refiled a backsaw (my first) and found the following three sources very helpfull:
www.vintagesaws.com
www.norsewoodsmith.com (he makes his own from scrap!)
"Classic Hand Tools" (book by Garrett Hack)

In your case I think I would NOT remove the old teeth completely. Reduce them to about .5 mm so you can still use them for the spacing of the new teeth. The subsequent filing will remove them completely. Although taking the saw to a sawdoctor would have been quicker and much cheaper (sawvise, files, sawset), I enjoyed doing it.

Good luck,
Jasper

Hello Jasper.

Good to hear from you all the way over in the Netherlands. My wife and I were recently over in your beautiful country, which also happens to be running in my veins (my father is a Dutchie from 's-Gravenhage). Had some great times in Utrecht, Nijmegen, Arnhem, Bergen op Zoom, 's-Hertogenbosch, Groningen, Middelburg, Alkmaar etc. Very nice place, Holland.

Thanks for the tips on the saw. I did successfully modify a crosscut saw to rip last weekend (although the teeth were larger -- 11tpi). I filed the teeth down to about half and started from there. It's a good result, but I will take my little Disston to our local saw guy.

Tot Ziens!
Green Woodchips

Hi Green Woodchips

Nijmegen is nice, we lived there for about 4 years. We're in Enschede now, near the german border (across from Ansterdam).

Jasper