Algra Rapidue Tipo M QCTP Opinions

Through a strange turn of events I have been given the above QCTP with one standard toolholder and another that's taper bored to take a small morse taper drill.
I have a AL250G lathe and I would appreciate and value any opinions about the value, and possible steps, of setting this up.
I don't have a mill, but it looks to me as if I can turn a long collar with a flanged bottom to locate the QCTP and maybe I might need a longer central threaded shaft (bolt) to raise the height of the lock down handle.
I think that's within my abilities.
I have had a look online and it appears that this QCTP new is fairly expensive, so if I can use it, I'm happy to put in some time on the setup.

This is my dilemma: Is it a suitable size for my lathe? (Question 1)
It looks as if centre heights for tools will line up even if I may have to make a spacer plate (but I dont think I will have to.)
Are the toolholders available and are copies available from asia and if so what might they cost and how would they be described.(Question 2)
(I notice the Algra ones sell for over $150 each)
Or am I better off in the long run giving it to a guy I know who is lusting for it, if I don't want it, and buying a QCTP from H & F (you know the ones for about $180) (Question 3)

It looks as though there's a location pin through the body which I assume would need to enter a lapped or sized hole in the cross slide. Would this be right? If so how can I drill this to size, and assure that its located properly? I understand the principles, but I have never had to do something this 'accurate' before, since most of my projects would have 1/64inch tolerances.
I have a 'light' bench pedestal drill. Would that would work to produce a hole? (Question 4)

Thanks in anticipation of your help. For a newby like me, you may not realise just how supportive this is.
regards Brian

For those who (like me) don't know this brand,
Attachment 284650
Looks a bit like the Dickson post.


Q1 Maybe
Q2 Try Dickson - they might fit
Q3 No.
Q4 The hole is optional. Lots of people use QCTP without the pinned hole

Michael

Thanks Michael--I appreciate your help
regards Brian

Brian,

I believe the original is the English "Dickson" toolpost. The are many many clones; some very well made, some average, some not-so-well made. The sizes are designated by letters A B C...

This is a link to a Swiss maker "Böni AG" in Feldbach which makes a very nicely executed exemplar of the Dickson toolpost. They use a number system to distinguish sizes:
Böni LTD Precision Tools * Quick-change Tool Holders
And this an old Böni toolpost on eBay, just to get a feel for price:
Boni Feldbach Quick Change Tool Post Set Model 125 | eBay

This is a link to the Italian maker "Rapid Original" close to Milan, making another incarnation of the Dickson toolpost, less well finished than Dickson though:
Rapid Original - Torrette portautensili - Rettifica da tornio - Torrette girevoli - Castano Primo - Milano
Also marketed as the"GFB Universal" toolpost, but made by above Rapid:
GFB UNIVERSAL Mandrini Autocentranti Torrette Portautensili - Castano Primo - Milano
And this is an old Rapid Original toolpost on eBay, just to get a feel...
Used Rapid Original Type "C" Italian Style Quick Change Toolpost w 10 Blocks | eBay

This is a link to the Italian maker "Algra" in Brembilla, making yet another Dickson toolpost, again not as well finished as the Dickson:
Accessori per Torni - Torrette tradizionali - ALGRA S.p.A.

This is a link to the Taiwanese maker "Vertex", also making a Dickson type toolpost:
VERTEX-MILLING-GRINDING-TOOLING-CNC-LATHE-GRINDER


Then there are several makers in China and in India. Not all dare to put their name onto it. Here just one example,
This is a link to the Chinese maker "Create Tools", the same maker that also makes copies of the Multifix toolpost:
Italian Multifix--Create Tool - Toolholder expert ---- Multifix toolpost toolholder | CNC toolholder | QCTP 40 Position QUICK CHANGE TOOL POST HOLDER for Lathe l Best quality Multifix l Good quality Multifix l Manufacturer Multifix l Supplier Multifi


To your questions:

Q1) I believe it is suitable for your lathe
Q2) It appears that within the same size, the toolholders are interchangeable between different makers.
Q3) It is a matter of personal preference. If you like the Dickson toolpost, you may as well keep your Algra. If you rather like the American Aloris style or the Swiss 40 mposition Multifix stile, sell it. If you are new to lathes, you could also keep the 4-way toolpst that came with your lathe - you will not make any better parts with a quick change toolpost, just save a little time when changing tools. Then, maybe after a year or two, you will be in a better position to decide what toolpost you want to buy, or maybe make your own.
Q4) There is absolutely no hurry to drill such hole. Do not do it, untill you are 100% sure that you like to work with an indexing toolpost. I for example, would remove a toolpost indexing feature, because I like to set my toolpost at any random angle.

Have fun, Chris

Here a link that shows dimensions for the original Dickson. It may be helpful in confirming interchangeability;
Dickson Quick-set Toolholders
Chris

Just so happens I have a Boeni on my little Hercus - https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mo...9/#post1530665 I reckon it's a nice bit of gear. I would not bother with an alternative. Spoiled I reckon.

Hercus supplied the Italian Rapid posts as an expensive option.

Keep the Algra Brian. The cheap lathe might someday be upgraded.

Bob.

Chris:-
Wow, thanks for these links and very useful info.
I will check out sizes of Dickson toolholders as you suggest.

Bob:-
I burst out laughing when I read your post--and I get it. It's not often I happen across a piece of kit that's worth keeping. Usually I 'make do'.

NEW QUESTION:
I know this may appear laughable, but is this a piston type QCTP? See a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but at least I know there are different 'types'. (It looks like a piston after looking at pics)
For a 'cheap lathe' :B does a piston type have any advantage over wedge type? (without dragging out old chestnuts, I hope).
and one more question:-

Considering that it's becoming clear to me I have created a monster for myself in now needing to buy toolholders. Are piston type cheaper/dearer than wedge type? Assuming of course that if you are a cheapskate like me, you would want to try and plan for the long haul, and keep the project cost down.
Ie, before plunging into this enterprise and setting up this better than average free QCTP, will it then cost me a great deal more in toolholder costs, than if I had bought a cheap H&F wedge type QCTP, and toolholders from asia.

My apologies, if this all seems too obvious and these questions have been asked before. I took the time to try to research these answers, but a lot of the info I could find on overseas forums seemed driven by emotion more than intellect..:)
Thanks again
Brian

Long time since I have used this type of holder but I would call it Piston type, but rather than a push method of clamping it uses a pull method.

The large TEE slot is pulled back towards the tool holder by the TEE nut locking the dovetails/wedges onto the tool post, in the same process the top hex bolt clamp locks onto your height adjust setting ring.

Ease of making yourself with general machine knowledge very doable, if only a basic knowledge or none doable but with the possibility of a few scrap blocks.

The cheaper Asian tool posts at either piston or wedge are quite capable, but if you were chasing poofteenths for repeatability probably not.

For the ease of making replacement holders I think the Asian copies would be a easier project for someone without much experience.

When it comes to replacement holders for the Asian type it could even be cheaper in the long run to purchase them rather than going to the trouble of making them yourself, although you will not have the learning aspect or enjoyment from making your own.

At the end of the day it will be you who decides which way to go, any of these holders will work on your lathe.

Embalm the Algra in grease and hide it away. Buy a cheap Chinese post with readily available holders and use that until your upgraded lathe makes an appearance.

BT

I love it, Bob!!!!
Perfectly succinct !
Brian

> NEW QUESTION:
> I know this may appear laughable, but is this a piston type QCTP?

simple dovetail toolposts can be piston or wedge or clamp. Like the American Aloris system. The Dikson type toolpost is a different design. It pulls the toolholder onto prisms.
But if you must compare the Dickson to the Aloris, then I would say both the Dickson and the Aloris wedge type pull the toolholder onto the toolpost and are thus comparable in rigidity.

> For a 'cheap lathe' :B does a piston type have any advantage over wedge type? (without dragging out old chestnuts, I hope).

For a small lathe below say a 2HP motor, there would certainly be no advantage in either. What makes a really big difference is the fit and finish. A simple but well made QCTP is always better and much more pleasure to use than a badly made wedge type or Multifix type toolpost.

> Are piston type cheaper/dearer than wedge type?

This question obviously relates to American Aloris QCTP. Wedge type always costs more than piston. However, a cheaply made Chinese wedge QCTP is still much cheaper than a genuine US made piston QCTP.

> Ie, before plunging into this enterprise and setting up this better than average free QCTP, will it then cost me a great deal more in toolholder costs, than if I had bought a cheap H&F wedge type QCTP, and toolholders from asia.

Quick answer: if money is the only factor, then yes sell your Algra and get a Chinese AXA pison type set from ebay.

Long answer: the Aloris QCTP clones are more popular than the Dickson clones, hence it is easier to find cheap toolholders to suit. Look on ebay, and do a search for "AXA-100" or "Aloris" and you will find toolholders for around the US$ 12 mark. If I remember well, 4 fit into a standard USPS $17.50 small flat rate parcel. Example: in 2010 I bought 8 AXA-100 clone toolholders from the US via eBay, at US$9 each for a total of US$72, they were sent in two flat rate parcels at a total postage of US$35, total US$ 107 for 8 toolholders = US$ 13.40 each delivered to Melbourne. For that price, I could not even make them myself as just the steel and wear of a dovetail cutter already costs more. I also bought An AXA-100 wedge type kit (QCTP with 5 holders) from the US, much cheaper than from H&F. Am I happy with it? I probably spent something like 10 hours improving fit and finish of that wedge QCTP and making it fit to my Hercus the way I want. Yes it does the job - but it is still not exactly a joy to use. If I could go back, I would instead buy a second hand genuine Toolpost from Aloris or Dorian, plus a dozen of Chinese made toolholders. But that is me, I do machining as a hobby and not for money, and I like to enjoy my hobby and my tools.

Chris

Thank you Chris.
You managed to get to the core of my questions and help me make a comfortable decision on what to do.
Thank you for the time and trouble you have taken to educate me to a point where I can decide on a path to follow--well at least at this stage.
From what I understand, this is a quality QCTP and part of the pleasure, is being able to use it for its own sake.
The extra cost of toolholders can be a choice to support the pleasure of using something that feels 'good' .
I can be a fan of that!
regards and thanks Brian