Best pattens for milling logs with a lucas

Hi All

Have now got my self a 6" secondhand Lucas mill.. Have had it for some months now... And seem to be getting the teething problems sorted...

Just looking for some advice on the best way to mill timber from the log now? I have mostly hard woods like Spotted Gum, Blue Gum, Morton bay ash Ect..

I have been mostly cutting 150x50 for yard rails cos i thought It would be a good project to learn on..

Have also milled some blue gum I hope to use to build some bed's out of for myself... they are 100x100 posts with 100x50 cross timbers...
Hope to try and find a market for some blue gum soon now Im starting to get the hang of the mill..

But any tips would be Great thanks!!

Also when I stack the timber to dry would it be helpful To strap it as well or is that not necessary?

Thanks in advance!

Give Lucas a ring and ask them for their D.V.D,which has some hints and advice that may well come in handy.Trial and error is probably the best way to learn,as you wont make the same mistake twice :wink:,hopefully! Plenty of milling videos on You Tube that will be useful to you too...MM:2tsup:

whereabouts is springsure mate?

I've got a DVD if ya want it? PM me your address.

BUT any specific q's would be gladly sorted.

Once you cut enough to make a 'good pack' size, I'd be inclined to strap the pack, for easy handling if nothing else, best not to leave timber sitting in the sun, unstrapped

Thanks Allan I have got the dvd now... Springsure is near emerald central qld..
I will try to be a bit more specific with my questions :-

1st I have heard some times you can align with the edge of the log and not the heart.. I did't see this on the dvd..
why would you do this and how?? Im guessing it might be useful when you have logs with a lot of taper and some of mine do..

2nd where is the best timber in the log? eg if I was cutting 100x100 or 50x100 were would i get the straits ones ones from?

3 what about sapwood should I try to trim it off completely or is it ok to leave some on in some cases?

4 Should I be worrying about if it is back sawn or quarter sawn or do you just mill through the log and how it comes is how it comes with a swingblade mill?

Sorry if these questions are dumb but I don't know much yet...

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Originally Posted by Mitchell Jack

Thanks Allan I have got the dvd now... Springsure is near emerald central qld..
I will try to be a bit more specific with my questions :-

1st I have heard some times you can align with the edge of the log and not the heart.. I did't see this on the dvd..
why would you do this and how?? Im guessing it might be useful when you have logs with a lot of taper and some of mine do..

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Aligning with the edge of the log can be done for two reasons in my book; 1. you are cutting low grade stuff like fence/landscape grade and looking to gain maximum volume quickly, this has added benefit of being quick on setting up and lets you put a bunch of timber on the ground, the down side is some of the timber may pull due to position of timber in relation to the heart (not an issue on lower grade stuff) and also more boards will have heart present in them (again not an issue for lower grade stuff)

2. On a tapered log, if you can think about your log in quarters, the 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock quarter can be cut along lines parallel with the top and left side of the log.
the 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock quarter can have the rails shifted sideways to be in line with the right side of the log and still kept in line with the top of the log.
9 o'clock to 6 o'clock lined up with left side of log and the bottom of the log and 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock again lined up with the bottom of the log, but now also with the right side of the log - the reason to do this is to reduce the occurrence of sloping grain in the timber (sloping grain downgrades structural timber and may even make it ungradeable, therefore useless) and the 'wasted timber' which is a bunch of tapered cuts from the centre comes out of the useless heart of the log, which in many situations has to be excluded from structural timber anyway

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Originally Posted by Mitchell Jack

2nd where is the best timber in the log? eg if I was cutting 100x100 or 50x100 were would i get the straits ones ones from?

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To begin with cutting 100x100, in my experience needs to come from a log no smaller than 600mm diameter to have any chance of being nice straight posts.
Straight timber - Always remember the sapwood on the log is what cause the 'pull' on timber, the further you can get your timber from the sapwood the straighter it will be, the closer you can get your timber to be 'even' in line with the heart, the straighter it will be, so the closer you get to the heart the straighter it will be too. if you take a 100x100 right from the outside of the log so one corner has sapwood it will banana like a boomerang, if you can get it so one face is 2" above heart and the opposite face is 2" below heart and the other sides are it is 1.5" and 5.5" away from the heart, it will be a straight 100x100 - the smaller your log gets the harder it is to get good 100x100, 125x125, 150x150. Once you get to 175x175you can put the heart right down the middle of the post ("box the heart") and this, if done right will be the straightest chunk you can get, same for 200x200, 225x225, 250x250 etc.

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Originally Posted by Mitchell Jack

3 what about sapwood should I try to trim it off completely or is it ok to leave some on in some cases?

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Sapwood on different species is treated differently. Species such as spotted gum, red stringybark (Lyctus susceptible species) cannot be sold with sapwood unless chemically treated, but you can use as much untreated as you like for your own use (as long as its never sold untreated) other species don't matter at all, ironbark, bluegum, grey gum. In my thinking, sapwood is fine to leave on in any situation as long as you understand what effect its tension will have on the timber and cut it accordingly, but you need to be familiar with the rules you have to abide by with regard to certain uses of specific species.

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Originally Posted by Mitchell Jack

4 Should I be worrying about if it is back sawn or quarter sawn or do you just mill through the log and how it comes is how it comes with a swingblade mill?

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I've found over the past 10 years, 99.9% of all the milling has been backsawn, very very few limited exclusive reasons for quartersawing any timber and that is driven by special customer request.

I'd add a couple of points to what Allan (Sigidi) has said:

cutting to taper can also be handy when you get big logs with big pipes... sometimes it's the only way to salvage anything of length from them. But you also have to factor in what it's costing you to cut... big, low grade logs can give a lot of timber, but you have to deal with a lot of $h!t so unless you can get out of them quick it's often more cost effective to find smaller, cleaner logs. Generally speaking, the "cleanest" timber will be towards the outside of the log just under the sap. The closer to the heart you get the lower it will grade.

Understanding how timber reacts in terms of compression and tension within a log is vital to being able to consistantly get straight timber at high recovery rates. Thats part theory... but mostly it's experience and the only way is to cut and learn, The types of timber you'll get there will pull hard to the sap, generally speaking, and sometimes the only way you'll get a straight 4x4 is to cut a 5 x 5 then resaw it. Log tension is an unavoidable fact of life when you cut dryland eucalypt species.

How long the log has been on the ground can have a big effect on "tension". For various reasons sapwood... being the growing part of the tree... is more porous then true wood. When wood dries out it shrinks, and sapwood dries much faster then truewood. Tension to the sap in the living tree is actually no greater then compression on the heart (otherwise the tree would fall apart), and a lot of what we call tension is actually uneven drying stresses. The rule of thumb is that wood dries at one inch of thickness a year (but sapwood can dry in weeks), so when we dont saw cut logs promptly after harvesting we create a situation when the log is dry on the outside and wet inside: dry wood shrinks creating 'tension" issues. Try and paint the ends of your logs ASAP to hold as much moisture as you can in them, and try and do as little damage to the bark as possible before actually starting sawing.

And yes, you should pay attention to how you handle your timber post milling. If it's being used for scantling timber it's generally helpfull to block stack it to try and preserve moisture levels, but otherwise you need to strip it out to dry. Strapping can be handy in either case, however once again the biggest issue is uneven drying. Timber will dry faster on the outsides of your stack and create another bend causing moisture gradient if it's exposed to direct sunlight or high winds. Direct sunlight is the biggest enemy of sawn timber.

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How long the log has been on the ground can have a big effect on "tension". For various reasons sapwood... being the growing part of the tree... is more porous then true wood. When wood dries out it shrinks, and sapwood dries much faster then truewood. Tension to the sap in the living tree is actually no greater then compression on the heart (otherwise the tree would fall apart), and a lot of what we call tension is actually uneven drying stresses. The rule of thumb is that wood dries at one inch of thickness a year (but sapwood can dry in weeks), so when we dont saw cut logs promptly after harvesting we create a situation when the log is dry on the outside and wet inside: dry wood shrinks creating 'tension" issues. Try and paint the ends of your logs ASAP to hold as much moisture as you can in them, and try and do as little damage to the bark as possible before actually starting sawing.

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Thankyou for all that info.

Dose this mean i should mill logs asap after there fell?? What about saw dust clearing when the log is really wet? I have had some trouble with this on full depth
Vertical cuts....

Thanks Allan that is great info.

Gives me plenty to work on and practice at!

Had to read it a few times to get my head around it and dare say I will have to read it a few more times...

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Originally Posted by Mitchell Jack

Thanks Allan that is great info.

Gives me plenty to work on and practice at!

Had to read it a few times to get my head around it and dare say I will have to read it a few more times...

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:wink: no problem

deep vertical cuts - keep the blade sharp, make sure it is aligned properly (check the sawmarks on the log) and adjust your speed through the log as needed - knots have circular grain which slows things down, 'normal' timber should be nice and easy. Vertical cuts are better than wide horizontal cuts :2tsup:

And plenty of water till you work out your speed.

An excellent thread. Answered a lot of the questions I had.


"Sapwood on different species is treated differently. Species such as spotted gum, red stringybark (Lyctus susceptible species) cannot be sold with sapwood unless chemically treated, but you can use as much untreated as you like for your own use (as long as its never sold untreated) other species don't matter at all, ironbark, bluegum, grey gum. In my thinking, sapwood is fine to leave on in any situation as long as you understand what effect its tension will have on the timber and cut it accordingly, but you need to be familiar with the rules you have to abide by with regard to certain uses of specific species."


In regard to the above, where would one find this information?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Barterbuilt

An excellent thread. Answered a lot of the questions I had.


"Sapwood on different species is treated differently. Species such as spotted gum, red stringybark (Lyctus susceptible species) cannot be sold with sapwood unless chemically treated, but you can use as much untreated as you like for your own use (as long as its never sold untreated) other species don't matter at all, ironbark, bluegum, grey gum. In my thinking, sapwood is fine to leave on in any situation as long as you understand what effect its tension will have on the timber and cut it accordingly, but you need to be familiar with the rules you have to abide by with regard to certain uses of specific species."


In regard to the above, where would one find this information?

Cheers

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Wood in Australia: Types properties and Uses by Keith R Bootle is one of those books every serious sawmiller is likely to have on his shelf. The rear section of the book has a large section on different properties of various species commonly found in Australia... lyctid susceptability, durability ratings, shrinkage rates, grade information, as well as technical stuff like modules of rupture and joint groupings etc etc. If you only have three sawmilling related books on your shelf that should be one of them.

Lyctid susceptability does not necessarily mean timber requires treatment however. Under the Australian standard 2082 lyctid susceptable sapwood inside the acceptable parameters of want and wane does not require treatment. However in Qld for instance under the Qld timber Marketing and Utilisation Act lyctid susceptable sapwood must be treated for structual usage. Victoria doesnt have this requirement, and I am unsure about any of the other states.

Then, to complicate matters further, Qld has two zones for treatment... north of the Tropic of Capricorn and South the Tropic of Capricorn. North of it treatment for timber not in ground contact needs to meet H3 standards. South of the line H1 will do.

Most states have their own guidelines under varying acts, and the only ones I'm familiar with are Qld, NT and Vic.

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Originally Posted by Barterbuilt

An excellent thread. Answered a lot of the questions I had.


"Sapwood on different species is treated differently. Species such as spotted gum, red stringybark (Lyctus susceptible species) cannot be sold with sapwood unless chemically treated, but you can use as much untreated as you like for your own use (as long as its never sold untreated) other species don't matter at all, ironbark, bluegum, grey gum. In my thinking, sapwood is fine to leave on in any situation as long as you understand what effect its tension will have on the timber and cut it accordingly, but you need to be familiar with the rules you have to abide by with regard to certain uses of specific species."


In regard to the above, where would one find this information?

Cheers

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look up 'TUMA' for rules within qld ;)
also this has some nice general info http://www.timberqueensland.com.au/D...esentation.pdf regarding timber preservation

I quarter-saw nearly every log that i mill,for a few good reasons..gives the boards more stability whilst seasoning,and fosters a better price in the market place.Certainly utility and species choice will dictate how you mill you logs.The 'big' old trees often have little spring,making them ideal for retrieving large quarter sawn boards,which can be used in furniture etc.I mill stuff most folk wouldn't touch,i tend to steer clear of conventional processes..that's me!Be adventurous with your milling,you'll be surprised what you will achieve.Think outside the square..milling a log is more than simply back sawing through and through,the lucas will give you many options.Have a look at my 'Mango Stump' thread,you'll see what i mean...been milling 20 years with a lucas,i do know my craft well....MM:2tsup: