Japanese Hand Tools Above "The Line"

Hi All

As capenter for many years, and a builder (off the tools in office) for many years I have always have had a love of hand tools. In recent times I have come across the Japanese Tool + it's beauty.

But where do I start? the net opens a wide world but also confuses one to no end.

On this forum Stu wrote about chisels above the line + below the line + how some companies manufacture above + below the line. How am I supose to work out what to buy??

Please you all know.

What tools are above the line?? Chisels Saws Planes

Please help

Most brands that are available from reputable tool dealers fall above the line, they would not sell the item if they did not believe in them. If they are just on or below the line then they will clearly state this on their websites. How far a tool is above the line is another question.

• https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/
• Japan Tool
• Wood working tool, Japanese wood working tool shop
• Hida Tool & Hardware Company
• Japanese Carpentry Tools | Suzuki-ya, Superior Japanese Hand Tools
• http://www.japanwoodworker.com/categ...ing-Tools.aspx

What do you get the higher you go above the line, in my view artistry, a subtle and debatable area. If you look at Higher Tier Chisels versus Medium Tier Chisels it is the little things that set them apart, the lamination line is cleaner, even, crisper and more defined. The way the chisel transitions to the neck, the finish of the tang, the ura is more clearly refined, the ura legs are more delicate, the grind pattern is finer. Also the black oxidation seems to be deeper and more even/consistent the higher above the line a chisel goes. One justification often given for Higher Tier tools is better edge retention based on the the skill of the smith to judge the heat treatment. Finally they have those valuable and unique makers mark.

On the Left is a Kunikei @ $225 each on the Right is an economy brand Hyakkumanriki at $25 each.

Attachment 319163 Attachment 319164

Does the Kunikei outperfom the Hyakkumanriki 9 to 1? NO, maybe 3 to 1. Does it look better, feel better? YES. But is it worth 9 time more? POSSIBLE NOT.

Now if you are a tool collector, then such things matter and if you are captivated by the artistry of Japanese tools, then go Higher Tier. However if you are a maker / craftsman. If you are more about doing then impressing people with the tools you own that are only taken out of there velvet lined display cabinets on high holidays. Then such refinements will; where the rubber hits the road make very little practical difference.

Now there is nothing wrong with being a collector, I know a few of them, even if I consider them a little fruity. However for myself a tool exists to be used and in the act of being used slowly ceases to be. To collect dust and rust is an affront to tools existence.

I personally find the need by some on this forum who go online to flaunt their $5,000 set of paring chisels or handplane as nothing short of a narcissistic.

Any tool above the line no mater how far above the line is only as good as the hands that wield it. Give a Kiyohisa or Tasai to a run of the mill chippie and in short order they will be chipped, bent & disfigured. Give any skilled craftsman even the most rudimentary tool and they will make it sing. Look at James Krenov planes they look like they were mauled by a chainsaw, yet he could make them outperform even the most costly bling bling infill. In short you cannot buy skill or talent.

Then there is the Japanese concept of wabi-sabi.

I have a $400 Lie-Nielsen No.6 Bench Plane a fine tool by any measure. I have a $30 kanna that has taken my time, patients and skill to master, however it now runs circles around my Lie-Nielsen for most operations.

Higher Tier Chisels (AKA Bragging Rights Chisels)

• Kiyohisa (Watanabe Kiyoei) - He seems to be the most sought after chisel maker alive today above Tasai (3 plus year wait)
• Kunikei (Ikeda Yoshiro) - As good as Tasai according to Soatoz and what I have seen and read of his work I would agree (1 plus year wait).
• Tasai (1 plus year wait)

Medium Tier Chisels (AKA Hard Working Professional chisels)

• Ouchi
• Kikuhiromaru
• Koyamaichi
• Fujikawa
• Iyoroi

Base Tier Chisels (AKA Occasional Hobby Use)

• Fujikawa
• Iyoroi

Now any blacksmith can make a top tier tool. Many offer a range of tools targeting set markets. Iyoroi is a good example they make cheap middle of the road stuff and they also make stuff that could go toe to toe with anything from Tasai.

When it comes to hand planes the two top makers seems to be Yokoyama Kunio and Tsunesaburo Hamono. What difference there is between them I do not know. Tsunesaburo has a very large range and all sorts of options regarding the dai and the bedding angles. However I am sure if you asked Yokoyama Kunio could do the same.

However there are many fine makers. Blacksmiths and house brands that have been forget to time. I have a sweet kanna and long paring chisel both made by unknown blacksmiths. However they perform amazingly.

My advice is start with any medium tier blacksmith. Or even ebay scores. Learn to setup and use the tool first, it is better to stuff up a $30 kanna then a $1000 kanna. Then if you still feel some need to do so then place an order for a top tier maker.

Not a bad summary, but you forgot these points (facts):

If you buy the best most expensive tools you'll be,

1. better looking,
2. even among the Gods, you'll be envied,
3. trees will fall down and split themselves into dimensioned lumber just by pointing a tool at them,
4. left together in the same room, a waterstone and water will renew your tools' edge to perfection spontaneously. Not only that, the waterstone will grow in size and there will be more water in the bucket than you started with,
5. there'll be an endless line of clients asking for you're work, and
6. subjectivity ($) trumps objectivity (¢) always.

:U

Ps., I could go on, but I'd risk not being taken seriously.

Sheets :o How could you? Next you will tell the kiddies that Santa Claus is not real.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheets

If you buy the best most expensive tools you'll be,

1. better looking,
2. even among the Gods, you'll be envied,
3. trees will fall down and split themselves into dimensioned lumber just by pointing a tool at them,
4. left together in the same room, a waterstone and water will renew your tools' edge to perfection spontaneously. Not only that, the waterstone will grow in size and there will be more water in the bucket than you started with,
5. there'll be an endless line of clients asking for you're work, and
6. subjectivity ($) trumps objectivity (¢) always.

---

Well, like it or not, the better the tool the higher the resale value. That is, you're much less likely to lose any money for using a top quality tool when you resell it. So always opt for leather seats. :)

Pam

If a tool is a collectable tool and it has never been used and it was looked after then yes will retain most 99% of its value. However as soon as you use it knock off 20% straight up. However tools are a very poor investment option. I once found a nice article that broke the economics down and you will be lucky to break even. I follow Japanese tools on ebay. You always see people trying to sell collectable tools. They list it at say $1000, then it does not sell and they drop its price, this goes on and on until someone gets a bargain and someone makes a loss.

Secondly any tool by a known maker will hold its vale. If you pay $90 for say an Ouchi and pay $225 for a Kunikei, you should get about 80% back if the tools has been looked after. You may get a few more percentage points for a Kunikei, but I would not be making any retirement plans if this was my investment strategy. You may get more money back on a price tool but you had to pay that money in the first place. You are still making a loss.

Sad but true.

True enough, but I wasn't really talking about Japanese tools, I've never tried to sell any; however, the LN and LV that I no longer need I expect to go for somewhat more than I paid, same with western saws. I think for the quality tools to retain and/or surpass their value we need a much larger market with more knowledge than is on ebay.

I was also talking about things like cars and furniture.

Pam

I have seen early LN planes and limited run tools collect a very high price above their original value. The Lie Nielsen 25th Anniversary Special Edition No. 4 1/2 Bronze Smoothing Plane being a prime example. I however will never be inclined to buy such tools.

I am planing to purchase a few top tier items. Not as investments not sole for their beauty, but to work them hard and eventually out of existence.

I think it's cool that I'll be able to sell some tools for more than I paid, and I expect to get this done for most of my metal planes real soon now. I didn't buy them as an investment.

As for Japanese tools, some of my most successful purchases (success being defined as being more effective with a dose of pleasure) were almost casual purchases, such as the Tasai ultra thin paring chisel I bought on a whim or my Kinshiro mortising gauge. They were expensive tools, but not of Ichihiro quality. I'm always delighted when I need to use one of these tools, they make me feel masterful even though I'm far from a master of Japanese ilk. And I expect that when/if I quit woodworking, I'll be able to sell those tools for a hefty profit.

Pam

Thanks great usable info

Now how about he same for saws, hammers, marking tools. Where do I start here