Demystify the steel used in carving tools please

Hi. I have a number of sets of carving tools and would like to better understand the differences in the steels used to make them. I'm reasonably certain that if I understood the steels I would be able to sharpen them better and keep them sharp longer. As it is, I treat them all the same - not right I'm sure.

So can anyone who is familiar with carving tools and know what these tools are likely to be made from, and how best to sharpen and strop them please advise.

I have Pfeil gouges which are from 1 to 10 years old. They come highly polished. The steel appears hard and (super ignorant statement - probably) I always get the feeling that I need to run the edge down till they are properly blunt before sharpening them again - not keep stropping them as I use them.

I have a set of Henry Taylor tools - Acorn brand. My estimate is 30ish years old. The steel is black (till you polish it). Crudely formed compared to the Pfeils. They don't seem to keep an edge for long (maybe I've just never sharpened them properly). Are they good tools ? Well respected brand ? Steel ?

I have a set of older Marples - full size jobs about 250mm long. I expect about 1970's or 1980's. Again, they are black steel like the Henry Taylor. I would not call them crude, but they are not polished so you still see the orginal grind marks, especially on the lower side of the gouges where they run perpendicular to the long axis. Are these good tools - they are pretty common ? What sort of steel were they ?

I have one of those sets of small Marples carving tools. There are 6 tools in the set, mini jobs about 150mm long. These are very common - they must have been sold in the millions. I think maybe they were sold as much for lino cutting as for wood carving. I cant tell much about the steel because my Father (who owned them) roughly polished up the steel shafts. I suspect they are pretty ordinary - but I see no fault with them when I use them. Opinions please ?

Finally, some Dastra. Some are old and rather crude, like the Henry Taylor. Some are newer and are bright shiny steel like the Pfeil.

I suspect I'm going to be told that the older, black steel ones are 'tool steel' and the newer, bright polished jobs are chrome vanadium. Is that correct ? Does that have a bearing on how they are sharpened and maintained ?

I also suspect that the reason the older ones appear somewhat crudely formed and the newer ones are much more refined and polished is just changing consumer expectations. Again, is that correct ?

cheers
Arron

Nobody is willing to give away the farm and explain the composition of the steel in their carving tools. Obviously different, though. Problem is if too hard, they chip. Too soft and the edge crumples.
If you dig away back in this forum, you can find a thread called "Star's Sharpening Journey." In that, I describe my techniques for "edge management." It's all freehand, no machinery needed. Fast forward to yesterday, I found myself doing the same things, trying to rehabilitate a kitchen cleaver.

I'll guess that your sharpening technique needs some coaching and improvement.
The way I hold my arms, the way I move my body, is really important for consistency.
Any questions at all, I'll try for a better explanation.

Lacking information from the manufacturer it's very difficult to say absent an XRF or elemental analysis. Commonly used steels for chisels include the carbon steels, hardenable up to a practical level about HRC60 +/-, Oil and air hardening tool steels such as O-1 and A-2 steels respectively that are frequently encountered in bench chisels and hand plane blades. Files are reportedly made from water hardening tool steel W-1 but I'm sure that there are many other alloys used. Some of the stainless steels, such as 440C, are also hardenable to the levels needed for wood carving but I've not encountered any bench chisels made from it. 300 series stainless is used in kitchen knives but it is not hardened using thermal processes. Most kitchen knives are HRC 30 or so.

I'm sure that I have more carving tools than I need but that's what happens over many years. Taken one class at a time, many brands, I find noticible differences in the hardness of the steels. I have maybe a dozen repurposed farrier's hoof knives which are wonderful to carve wood with. Hall and Ukal are exhausting to repurpose and sharpen to a useful edge. Mora and Diamond are much easier to work. My 3 Chinese-style kitchen cleavers are just as different.
I use 3 adzes. There's no finesse in the function for rough work except perhaps with a D-adze. They are all about the same (Stubai & Kestrel)
OTOH, within one brand (eg Pfeil), I've found differences as well. Fertile ground for rumor and inuendo.
By keeping my sharpening process as consistent as possible, even to carving the same woods, some edges are better than others. They just seem to last longer without chipping or crumpling.

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Originally Posted by Arron

So can anyone who is familiar with carving tools and know what these tools are likely to be made from, and how best to sharpen and strop them please advise.

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most older tools will almost certainly be "normal" carbon steel, heat treated by the maker

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I have Pfeil gouges which are from 1 to 10 years old. The steel appears hard and (super ignorant statement - probably) I always get the feeling that I need to run the edge down till they are properly blunt before sharpening them again - not keep stropping them as I use them.

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The Pfeil's probably have some chrome in them to help make them shiney.

I was taught to restrop a carving chisel as soon as it felt even a little bit blunt.

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I also suspect that the reason the older ones appear somewhat crudely formed and the newer ones are much more refined and polished is just changing consumer expectations. Again, is that correct ?

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possibly the "crudeness" is the result of less than optimal sharpening over the years

Arron, the brands of carving tools you mentioned are all reputable, excellent makes and use quality steel to make these.

Your final comment "I also suspect that the reason the older ones appear somewhat crudely formed and the newer ones are much more refined and polished is just changing consumer expectations. Again, is that correct ?" is probably correct, I suspect that the lucrative US market requires the tools to be shiny and (IMHO) this may be driving the appearance aspect of modern carving tools in this direction.

However, all the tools you mentioned will do what they are designed to do, namely carve well. The main proviso is, the tools must be sharpened correctly and kept sharp, ie stopped often.

My 20c worth of observations is that Pfeil tools appear to have excellent quality control, whereas this appears to be less on some of the UK tools; for example, I have found some of my Vee tools from Ashley Iles and Marples to have uneven wall thicknesses on either side. Not detrimental, but needed to be fixed.

No complaints about the quality any of the steels used, all maintain a sharp edge, if properly looked after, ie stropped often. I sharpen all my carving chisels and gouges in the same manner, regardless of make, shiny or dull finish, and the result is always the same. No need to be too philosophical about it ...

Shiney tool surfaces are created by abrasive which are so fine that the human eye cannot resolve the network of scratches.
Very hard elemental additives like chromium work to this advantage for 40,000grit polishing compounds.

Also, I was taught as a carver, to hone as the effort to push the gouge becomes noticible. In my
soft western red cedar, that's 30-40 minutes. 5 strokes on the strop is a whole lot less work than 20 minute trying to rehabilitate a crappy edge.

GoGuppy's observations read like a long time of mindful hindsight. I've had to "learn" the tools as I have "learned" the woods.

All the manufacturers you mention use carbon steel from different sources (none of them contain chrome vanadium) although that is definitely not the final say in how your gouge will perform/feel.
The way a gouge performs (or any other edge tool) is a very subtle understanding of the type of steel used, how it was forged, the thickness of the blade, the heat treatment & the profile of the grind.
Different countries traditionally use different wood types & shape & temper their gouges to suit.
In British tools like Ashley Iles, Henry Taylor, Maples etc. Oak is the intended target (since medieval times) , so they are forged with a thick & heavy profile- that may feel gross & unsubtle in comparison to a country with a tradition of pine carving, British gouges are tempered to 59 to 60 Rockwell hardness maximum, they are tough & robust & intended to be used with a mallet. They are supplied with a shorter bevel , harder to hand push & not capable of taking a long bevel - it will just crumble. These are not inferior tools, they are perfect for the job for which they were designed .

Pheil (swiss tools) were designed for carving pine therefore have a much reduced thickness of cross section & are tempered to be harder (61 to 63), they are intended to work softer woods with lots more pushing by hand alone, they come as standard with a bevel at a full 5 degrees longer.
The steel that they use has evolved to be perfect for this type of use , UK. manufacturers use 01 steel ,which can be hardened as hard but they CHOOSE not to.

Well that's all very clear - not quite ! because manufacturers know that the vast majority of carvers are amateurs & the fact that the manufacturing process has become more automated they have softened their steel - a modern gouge DOES NOT perform or feel in use like a gouge of 50 or 70 years ago - they grind thicker & temper softer to avoid a load of rejected chipped & broken gouges being returned to them !

Unless you can pick up antique gouges at an auction - & they will cost you dear ! Perhaps the best way forward is to think about what kind of woods you intend to carve mostly, hard or soft ? abrasive or forgiving ? do you use a mallet extensively or is it mostly hand push ? do you scape & scratch or do you cut cleanly ? Now choose your gouges accordingly & most importantly sharpen at the intended angle for which they were designed , or you will simply frustrate yourself if you put too long a bevel on or use a delicate long bevel to scrape with or on too hard a wood.
If I had some over soft poor quality gouges I would finish them on a fine stone & not take the to the strop as they will keep their edge longer that way.
For what it's worth - If I were buying gouges today I would undoubtedly buy Pheil & if I had some really hard wood to cave I would shorten the bevels.
BUT let's not forget amongst all this tool talk , some of the very finest carving ever done was done with just a few of the most modest tools imaginable - I aint about the tools really !
Mike

That's fantastic information Mike. Really makes sense.

Just today I was trying to put a really long bevel on one of the old Marples gouges and was surprised to see it crumble. I mostly carve soft woods (mostly Huon or jelutong) by hand-push and don't like mallets much. From what you say, I'm treating it wrong. It should have a short bevel and be put aside for mallet work in harder woods.

I notice the Henry Taylor's are a little more versatile. But really it's the Pfeils which suit my carving so I'll concentrate on building them up, I think.

Cheers and thanks.
Arron
(immensely happy with my new knowledge)