Violin bridge fitting issue. Need advice.

Hello and thanks for looking at this.

I have a fair bit of experience with guitar set ups and repairs, so was recently asked by my 9 years old granddaughter if I could fit a bridge to her newly purchased second hand 4/4 violin. It came without a bridge. See middle photo. Chinese made I think.

Perhaps that missing bridge should have made me raise an eyebrow, but the Seller gave no indication to the Mum that something might be 'wrong' with the instrument.

Anyway, I buy a Teller bridge, and research the fitting of it for several hours. That research alone gave me a whole lot of respect for violin makers and repairers. A different level of craftsmanship. But I have a lot the gear required, so I do the fitting of the bridge feet this morning to the contour of the top , which took a few hours to get perfect.

It was then, as I moved to the next step with the top of the bridge, that I noticed the fingerboard (over the body) was either badly warped, or that's just how violins are made. See bottom photo. The E string side is 3 -4 mm lower than the G string side at the end of the fingerboard.

I did a projection with a carpenter's pencil resting on the fingerboard of that profile onto the new bridge standing in its correct position by using the E and G strings to apply light tension to the bridge. Its like a ski slope compared to the Teller bridge's radius of 42mm. See photo.

SO, .....do I trim one of the feet down (but it will make that foot very thin), OR, re- radius the top of the fingerboard with a planing tool , OR cut the top of the new bridge to the pencil line allowing for string clearance specs ? Im thinking today a combination of all 3 but with most of the work done by planning the fingerboard ?

Thank again for reading and I look forward to your advice.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/BL6Ct9ml.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/vOW1rSdl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/BWXcT6Ml.jpg[/IMG]

And thinking too that I may need to remove the fingerboard and plane flat the top of the neck and the bottom of the fingerboard, albeit at an angle to bring the fingerboard level with the top of the body, rather than try to re-radius the fingerboard ? Or a bit of both ?

I tend to think that what you are attempting is not worth the effort.
If the instrument was sold without a bridge -- which I understand to be an essential component of the instrument -- and the finger board is mis-shaped, I'd want to be certain that the sound of the rebuilt instrument justifies the effort involved.

Can the granddaughter's mother go back to the seller? From here the instrument is not of merchantable quality.


However, this site What's the distance between G/E strings and fingerboard suggests that on violins, the G and E strings are different distances above the fingerboard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

I tend to think that what you are attempting is not worth the effort.
If the instrument was sold without a bridge -- which I understand to be an essential component of the instrument -- and the finger board is mis-shaped, I'd want to be certain that the sound of the rebuilt instrument justifies the effort involved.

Can the granddaughter's mother go back to the seller? From here the instrument is not of merchantable quality.

However, this site

What's the distance between G/E strings and fingerboard

suggests that on violins, the G and E strings are different distances above the fingerboard

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Thank you Ian. Yes, understand your comment re is it worthwhile . Since I posted this thread, the Mum has said don't worry about doing it as she bought the violin for just $40.00. Basically, chuck it out. But Ive decided to do it anyway just for the experience and found a 3 part series of U tube . videos :

Fingerboards2of3.wmv

.

I am treating the instrument as if it is a $4000 instrument to see what the end result is like.

As you can see , I'm now on the 2nd part. Part 1 starts (by coincidence) with the correction of the issue my violin has, but nowhere near as bad.
As I could also see that the neck had a twist, I have taken the fingerboard off and corrected the neck to level with a plane and have since planed, scraped and sanded the fingerboard level, as per the first Part of the U tube series. Although they didn't need to take off the fingerboard, doing it in situ.

A big difference between guitars and violins is trying to find a flat surface to be able to get a perpendicular reference point to get the new bridge and the neck and freeboard level with each other! The only place I could find is the vertical join at the tailpiece end button. From there I was able to affix a small L square . I read a comment from one violin maker/repairer that its very important with violins to get symmetry between the components, especially the ones I'm dealing with. Id be interested to hear from a violin builder here if achieving that is by eye and feel ,or by a jig during building. And if using a perpendicular reference point like I did is valid for this repair.

Re the G and E string. Yes youre right, I think I read 5.5mm for G and 3.5mm for the E is standard. I think that will be covered in the U tube series, but if not, I think it may be achieved by the bridge profile or string slots. Yet to see, but I'm pretty sure its not achieved via the fingerboard radius ?

Been watching this to see how things turn out. I dont know anything about fiddles so cant help there. I can set up a uke or guitar action but a violin just has so many other angles happening. I do like your urge to have a go just to learn something anyway. Can I ask how you got the fingerboard unstuck from the neck and will you be adding a filling piece to replace the planed away wood?
Regards
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orraloon

Been watching this to see how things turn out. I dont know anything about fiddles so cant help there. I can set up a uke or guitar action but a violin just has so many other angles happening. I do like your urge to have a go just to learn something anyway. Can I ask how you got the fingerboard unstuck from the neck and will you be adding a filling piece to replace the planed away wood?
Regards
John

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I used a wheatbag for neck pain etc. No pun intended.
Heated it in the microwave and wrapped it around the neck and fingerboard, keeping it away from the neck joint. Secured it with a ac ouple of Velcro wraps. Left in there for 2 minutes and started to prise a very thin paint scraper into the glued joint.
https://i.imgur.com/zPx2Y7gl.jpg

Did this process another 2 times, gradually moving the scraper further into the softening glue.

https://i.imgur.com/SoZJLDYl.jpg

Then off it came . Maybe a fluke, but no damage.

https://i.imgur.com/yg9r8qOl.jpg

I figured heat would be needed just wondered how to apply it. May be something I need to do one day so thanks for the info. Good luck with the rest of the repair.
Regards
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orraloon

Been watching this to see how things turn out. I dont know anything about fiddles so cant help there. I can set up a uke or guitar action but a violin just has so many other angles happening. I do like your urge to have a go just to learn something anyway. Can I ask how you got the fingerboard unstuck from the neck and will you be adding a filling piece to replace the planed away wood?
Regards

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by orraloon

John

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Sorry John, I didn't respond to your question concerning replacing the neck wood I've planed away,

Answer is, I didn't remove much, in fact along one whole edge of it, none was removed as I was straightening an off- square (but flat) original surface along its entire length.

Nevertheless, as I still have the fingerboard off the neck, I am pondering if its worth correcting the set angle anyway with a very thin shim between the fingerboard and the neck which is, (I've read) on a full size violin determined by measuring the height from the violin body to the centre top of the fingerboard 'overhang' and also as projected with a straightedge to the centreline of the bridge in it correct position.

I have a smidgen under 20mm for the former (with the fingerboard clamped back on) and will have 25mm for the latter. Ive read that this should be 21mm and 27mm respectively. I don't know if shaving an extra 2mm off the top of the new and yet un-trimmed (on the top profile) bridge, is a definite no-no, or whether its within acceptable limits . (?)

I'm thinking that shim would need to be a long sliver , rather than as for a guitar neck pocket shims which are usually 60mm long. I don't want to use a shorter and easier to make shim like the guitar type, and then be using excess glue to "pack up" the rest of the joint. Maybe I'm being too anal.

Can anyone chime in here with some advice ?

as a result of this thread I've done a bit of reading about setting up a violin.
Apparently, unlike string instruments that use frets, stuff like the distance from each string to the finger board is personal to each musician. Perhaps ask the granddaughter before customising the instrument too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

as a result of this thread I've done a bit of reading about setting up a violin.
Apparently, unlike string instruments that use frets, stuff like the distance from each string to the finger board is personal to each musician. Perhaps ask the granddaughter before customising the instrument too much.

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Thanks Ian. My inclination is to leave the 'action' low for young fingertips, encouraging practice, or at least not discouraging it . And as the granddaughter is only a 2nd year beginner she's not likely to be playing above the "4th fret" for a while.

On the other hand, I don't want it to be too low and cause the strings to vibrate against the fingerboard, choking the sound. I will check her 1/2 size current violin's action though as you infer.

Can anyone with experience teaching younger players give some additional guidance here (re action) ?

Thanks again.

thinking about the ergonomics, perhaps the customisation of a violin is based on the length of the player's fingers and the overall size of their hand ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

thinking about the ergonomics, perhaps the customisation of a violin is based on the length of the player's fingers and the overall size of their hand ??

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Yes Ian, I've realised just how finicky violins are. Its a real craft, lots of nuances . I'm too late in life to become really skilled at it, compared to where I've eventually arrived at with guitars, and even then, solid bodies are my main thing !