A brief history of the bowl gouge

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I have previously written here on the forum about the history of the bowl gouge. I thought it was about time I did that again so that new turners to this forum know that we have not always had the luxury of the many excellent bowl gouges that we have available to us nowadays.

Turners make decisions about buying this bowl gouges or that, taking for granted that there will be a bowl gouge available that will work well for them. However, that has not always been the case.

When I began turning it was before the development of the bowl gouge, as such, so I very much appreciate what the developers of the bowl gouge have given us and how signifcant a development it has been for us bowl turners.

Here are two brief articles that tell the story from the perspective of the two main player and the two centres of development.

The first is from Roy Child, son of Peter Child in England. Peter is often credited with the creation of the fist purpose made bowl gouge, but it was Roy who developed it from there through the next steps towards what we recognise as the modern bowl gouge.


A personal view of bowl gouges


At the end of that article on page II, Roy has added his thoughts about developing a bent and angled tip bowl gouge, which as far as I know hasn't gone anywhere and probably for a number of quite good reasons.

The second article is about Jerry Glaser, and prior to him Bob Stocksdale, in the US. It tells the story from the other side of the Atlantic.


Jerry Glaser – the toolmaker – Glaser Hitec Engineering


It is written from the perspective of the Glaser HITEC tool manufacturing company, so the claims in the last bit of that article need to be read as marketing spruik.

Others subsequently added their contributions by way of grinds, including Liam O'Neill, David Ellsworth, Richard Raffan and the Battys, but all of those are based and dependent on the modern bow gouge configuration.

So, the next time you pick up your favourite bowl gouge reflect upon those who developed and pioneered it for you. Due to them yours is a very much more enjoyable bowl turning experience to what we had 50 years ago!

That was a great read Neil, thanks for posting it.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

So, the next time you pick up your favourite bowl gouge reflect upon those who developed and pioneered it for you. Due to them yours is a very much more enjoyable bowl turning experience to what we had 50 years ago!

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Mind you, it's also thanks to them that it's almost impossible to get your hands on a decent hook tool unless you know/are an able blacksmith! :;

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Mind you, it's also thanks to them that it's almost impossible to get your hands on a decent hook tool unless you know/are an able blacksmith! :;

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Thanks for raising the humble hook, Andy.

Yes, green turning with hook tools was the primary means of bowl production for countless centuries before that and explains the typical warped rim on many surviving bowls from those times. I consider Robin Wood's book on the history of The Wooden Bowl to be the definitive work on the topic. Here is a video of him giving a quick flick through the sections of his book.

The wooden bowl book, the definitive history of the turned wooden bowl by Robin Wood - YouTube

Robin still turns with hook tools on a pole lathe in that way. I have a nice little bowl of his that is turned that way...:)

I did make my own hook tools for awhile for doing the inside end grain of hollow forms until Woodcut brought out their pro-forme, which I found worked better for me for that purpose. That was a relief as I wasn't very good at tempering the hooks myself; they were either too soft and didn't hold an edge or too hard and kept snapping off.

The other problem with making your own hook tools is that most of us are restricted to making them from standard carbon tool steel, which doesn't hold its edge for anywhere near as long as HSS. Michael Hosaluck showed me a HSS version that he is now having made for him, which you can buy from.... Hook Tool by Michael Hosaluk - Woodturning Tool Store Not cheap when converted into A$.

Andre Martel also supplies one Equipment - Andre Martel Wood Turning

To get an idea of what bowl turning was like after the introduction of powered lathes, but prior to the development of the modern bowl gouge, have a look at the following video of a film made in 1926 of an old master woodturner making a bowl. The nearest he has to a bowl gouge is what we now call a shallow continental gouge and that is used in cutting mode on the outside, but equally as a scraper on the inside. Despite his high level skills the process of hollowing out the inside appears to be very slow and the bulk of the time to do so has been cut from the film. A hook style tool is used at the very bottom inside of the bowl, but prior to powered lathes the hook tool was the predominant tool for hollowing out. I surmise that scrapers used for bulk removal of material would have been too demanding for human powered turning. Note, despite his high level skills, the occasional catch on the inside with the continental gouge when cutting rather than scraping... I wonder how many more of those there were in the segment that got cut out!

The video is only 11 minutes long, but the the most relevant bits are from 1:00 to 2:00 when you can see him sharpening his tools and from 4:30 to 6:30 when he is hollowing out.

WOOD CARVING IN GERMANY 1926 - YouTube

BTW, some have called the hook tool an inside out gouge, which to my mind fails to capture its best use since the availability of the modern bowl gouge. Its primary purpose now is for cutting on the inside of an end grain pieces. Yes, you cut with it from the inside outwards or from the inside bottom up towards the rim, but on end grain pieces. Do that on a cross grain piece, cutting against the grain, and you are going to get chronic tear out...:o

In my experience the bowl gouge does the best job on the inside of a cross grain piece, cutting as it does down hill with the wood fibers, and a lot faster than what that old craftsman had by way of tools back in 1926. How he would have loved any of out modern bowl gouges!

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Originally Posted by NeilS

In my experience the bowl gouge does the best job on the inside of a cross grain piece, cutting as it does down hill with the wood fibers, and a lot faster than what that old craftsman had by way of tools back in 1926. How he would have loved any of out modern bowl gouges!

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Doubtless! Modern technology applied to both the tools and lathes have made turning much less laborious and more precise. The same craftsman would love any modern chuck, too!

There are times that a hook tool is definitely preferable to a bowl gouge though. Turning soft- or green woods on a pole or slow treadle lathe for example. (I'm pretty sure Robin claimed similar in a U-tube vid, although I can't seem to locate it now.)

Mind you, even on a treadle or pole lathe I want a bowl gouge when turning properly dried Aussie hardwoods though. Even I'm not so masochistic as to insist on a hook tool then... :no:

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

The same craftsman would love any modern chuck, too!

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Having predated the self centering woodturning chuck myself, I can say a loud here here to that, Andy.

The modern chuck and the modern HSS bowl gouge are the two most significant developments in my time, followed by swivel head lathes that provide comfortable outboard turning.

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

There are times that a hook tool is definitely preferable to a bowl gouge though. Turning soft- or green woods on a pole or slow treadle lathe for example. (I'm pretty sure Robin claimed similar in a U-tube vid, although I can't seem to locate it now.)

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I expect the video you are thinking of is the following one in which Robin is doing a head to head with a powered lathe/bowl gouge turner. There was not much in it time wise, but Robin's bowl was done much better when seen with the two finished bowls cut in half. However, the speed race may have had a different outcome with speed merchants like Stuart Batty, Mike Mahoney, Glenn Lucas or Richard Raffan on the gouge and, needless to say, their bowls would have stood up favourably along side of Robin's.

battle of the bowlturners - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Mind you, even on a treadle or pole lathe I want a bowl gouge when turning properly dried Aussie hardwoods though. Even I'm not so masochistic as to insist on a hook tool then... :no:

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Perhaps a HSS hook might tackle our seasoned hardwoods on a power lathe. However, HSS hooks are expensive, don't have a lot of cutting steel in each one and are inherently fragile. I find a solid bowl gouge to be a better and more economical tool for our hardwoods and occasionally a carbide tip for the most tenacious. As for human powered turning, I can't imagine ever having had enough power in my legs to treadle my way through a lump of our desert acacias...:B

Peter Child's first book, The Craftsman Woodturner is most interesting because he shows the techniques before bowl gouges and chucks. There were several editions after the below that leave out what was in the first one. He can be quite entertaining with his writing.

The craftsman woodturner

by Peter Child

Edition DetailsISBN:0713516682
Release Date:January 1971

Publisher Bell & Hyman

Format Hardcover

Length:238 Pages
Weight:1.00 lbs.

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Originally Posted by Paul39

Peter Child's first book, The Craftsman Woodturner is most interesting because he shows the techniques before bowl gouges and chucks.

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Thanks, Paul.

Yes, the Child book was seminal at the time. I still have my original copy from the 1970s...:)

Attachment 484967

It's very dated now, but it does capture the state of the craft back then. If nothing else, it reminds us how far we have come since then.

In retrospect, for me the most significant piece of content buried within its pages was the following image of the bowl gouge flute profile developed/promoted by him.

Attachment 484970

I was never impressed with his designs, but I did pick up on a number of his techniques including his outboard approach to bowl turning and the pre-turning of green wood before re-turning later on as seasoned 'blanks'.

Thanks for this post Neil I've found the discussion interesting.
I'm not sure if its relevant but I bought a number of old turning tools from the family of an old guy who had passed. They were mostly roughing gouges, skews, parting tools and scrapers. Among them were two "gouges" which I haven't been game to really try. I'm not sure of the safety of either the profile or the tangs. They must be quite old judging by the age of the other tools. I'm wondering if these might be someone's early attempt at shop-made bowl gouges. Anyone ever seen anything like them and do you think they would be safe to handle and turn?
Thanks
ChrisAttachment 485088Attachment 485089Attachment 485090

Doragus, with that small tang a big catch might get you a mouthful of gouge. If you cut off the tang and got the main part of the gouge about 3 inches / 75 mm into the handle with a good furrule, that would work. Or leave the tang on and get the thick part of the gouge in 2 inches /51mm with the tang in a smaller hole further in. In either case bedded in with epoxy. I would also do a more swept back grind to get rid of the points which might catch if you were not careful.

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Originally Posted by doragus

I'm wondering if these might be someone's early attempt at shop-made bowl gouges. Anyone ever seen anything like them ...

Chris

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They look more like spindle roughing gouges to me.... perhaps copies of the old P&Ns.

Definitely a home grown going by the milling efforts. I think I can also see boring (drilling) grooves in the bigger one and, if so, bored then the upper part of flute milled out from there.

I speculate they would be made from high carbon rather than a HSS because of the more exacting demands for tempering HSS in a home shop.

My concern with a tool that has been tempered in a home shop is that if they got the tempering wrong you may have a very brittle tool that can shatter on you. That is also one of the reasons why I recommend that we don't repurpose old files for turning... they were not tempered for that use. Commercial tool manufacturers (should) do periodic quality control destruction testing to ensure their heat treatment processes remain within specification for their intended use.

My suggestion to you Chris is that you add them to your curiosity collection...:U

We occasionally hear about the end of a commercially made bowl gouge snapping off, but not very often. If the gouge engages with the spinning wood before it is placed on the rest it will be slammed down on the rest with considerable force... simulating a destruction test...:o

The problem with the tangs on most spindle roughing gouges is that they are forged from flat bar and as a result the depth of the tang is limited by that and far too thin, IMO. That type of tang can easily bend or snap...

Attachment 485136

Spindle roughing gouges that are milled from round bar and leave a solid tang (eg 1/2" or 5/8" diameter) avoid this potential problem. A few good examples of SRGs with good tangs that I'm aware of are the old P&Ns, Carter and Sons, D-Way and a small one that Doug Thompson makes to Mark St.Leger's specification.

Note: At the risk of repeating the obvious, Spindle Roughing Gouges were/are designed for spindle work and are not for bowl turning. However, it is always worth mentioning that again just in case someone has not as yet picked up on that distinction. That is one lesson you don't want to learn from experience!!!

:whs:

Also, the milling in the flute can be a problem, although it looks like the last inch or so has possibly been smoothed

The reason it's a problem is because the cutting edge is the intersection of the flute and the bevel and sharpening with those ridges there would be like... well.. trying to sharpen a chisel or plane blade that had random corrugations across the back.

Definitely better suited for a curiosity display than your tool rack.

Yes. Thanks Neil. As I said, I haven't been game to use them and you have confirmed my suspicions. Back to the "maybe I can do something with this one day" box.