Japanese chisels and Aussie timbers

G'day,

I'm going to go down the slippery slope of Japanese chisels.

My question be thus, how does laminated carbon steel in Japanese bench chisels stand up to Aussie timber, with Spotted Gum as a good example of something nice and hard?

I've found a Melbourne supplier, an ex-pat Japanese bloke, who I've found as a good source. I don't really want to put out $ if they're very brittle and can't hold up against our hardwoods. I know you can get HSS Japanese chisels, against their white paper steel.

Below is an example of what I can get at the moment. He has more stock coming in 2 weeks time, which I'll hold out for before heading out his way.

Attachment 508178

This gets asked from time to time.
It has been over a decade since this discussion:
Japanese chisels
.......and things may have changed.
Some of the posters then may also have changed their position on use of Japanese chisels.

Here is another discussion with some of the same people responding - it has a little more detail:
The best brand of chisels

And yet another:
good qualite chisels

And another from a few years later:
cheap chisels made from hard steel??

Cheers
Tom

I am insane for Japanese chisels. I love them for their balance, feel in hand, their aesthetic beauty, their diversity in form and function. The way they will take and hold an amazing edge. However you must respect them. You have to work with them. This means you have make sensible timber choices. This is what they ask of us.

You can however increase edge retention:

Never lever or scrape
Don't be greedy with cuts always shave rather then chomp
Increased bevel angle by adding a few degrees
When putting the chisel down put it on its back so the cutting edge is up and protected
Maintain your edge hone often do not let it degrade to far

There is also a big difference between brands. I have made a point of purchasing a diverse range of blacksmiths. Compare and contrast. There is no simple formula. Well known brands can be terrible, basic workman tools can be excellent. I have several favourites, regrettably many of them have died and can no longer be bought. A well known brand crumbled and chipped in pine. My favourite brand Masashige (deceased) are amazing regrettable I only own 4 of them. Tasai Aki (The father and the original) is very good (I own 3). Kunikei is just has this amazing it has this aura that I love (but he is no longer making because of age). I am looking to purchase Sukemaru, Takahashi, . Kikuhiromaru are decent but the 4 of them lack something their is no romance with them. Kikuhiromaru are softer they fold not chip. I have been waiting 5 years for my Kiyohisa (he was injured and has been slowed down but I have been promised that he will deliver). Funahiro refused to take an order for a single nomi.

If you are going to buy second hand your best source will be yahoo Japan - just because it is not a big brand does not say anything their were many unknown craftsman making excellent tools also many well know blacksmith made tools for wholesalers. I have a Tasai chisel marked with a wholesalers inscription.

ヤフオク! - 日本最大級のネットオークション・フリマアプリ

If you want new I cannot recommend anyone better that Teshiba-san. If it exists he can get it for you.

çî�Aèw�A‘å�H“¹‹ï‚̙֑ɗ…‰®

If you use chisels straight into the wood and only for light prying (like very thin splinters, etc, out of corners - save anything else for another tool or chisel), they'll hold up fine.

The failure if it occurs (not due to prying) will occur at the edge - add a tiny microbevel if a chisel isn't holding up, and if corners relieve themselves (leave) increase the primary bevel incrementally.

If a chisel (any japanese chisel) seems to be difficult to coddle into not chipping, then it's overhard (but tempering it may not be practical for you - it needs to be done reasonably accurately, but something like white 1 will end up around 65 hardness still at 325-350F tempering - despite a lot of peddled nonsense that they do better at 100C tempering. Hitachi starts their tempering schedule around 325 for 65/66 hardness an the steel is better at 350 or so, or even 375 - than it is at a lower temper temperature).

White will will still be 64 hardness at something like 400 temper temperature.

There's no real magic with the chisels - if they're not hardened properly, and tempered properly, it's because the maker just doesn't care and a lot of the makers catering to american and european buyers don't really care. The best way to end up with quality chisels is forget about maker names, go to buyee or one of the proxy services and buy three or four sets of used chisels that are cleanly made, keep the best one or two and resell the others.

You'll end up with very good chisels for about $250 per set of 10, and no "it" maker will be any better (I've got several kiyotada chisels - they are better than most used japanese chisels, but my comments about getting a few sets are based on the fact that I've had plenty of random chisels in lots that are $10 per chisel, and a few sets that are an even match).

I've also tempered back some overhard chisels to the point that the edges are stronger than the tang/handle joints and have tested them with a very heavy hand and caused the handles to fail. No edge damage, and enough vummer through the wood that the chisels were getting very warm to the touch). I'd venture to guess that the better chisels tempered back to 350F are still around 65 hardness as they're high spark (not alloyed) and almost untouchable by natural stones.

Adding to over tempered blades, I have had a few chisel and plane blade come good after a few sharpenings as you remove some of the over cooked steel.

that can happen, but more common in some tools is to leave them undertempered (including in old ones). I have no idea why. If a steel is overcooked and decarburized, then it'll be easy to sharpen. If if's bullet hard to sharpen on a natural stone and it's white steel, it's just overhardened.

Trouble with chisels is that if you're going to temper one, it has to be one in an accurate oven and with handles off, and I don't think most people are looking to take handles off and put them back on (The fit sometimes won't look right, and if someone dumps four figures on a set of chisels ,they may be a little prissy about the appearance).

I think that maybe it was seen as more acceptable with japanese tools to leave the tools a little hard assuming that someone who knew what they wanted would temper them back.

The decarb thing is a little more common in lower cost western tools that are heat treated in the open atmosphere or forged at too high of a temp and not ground back enough. It shouldn't be an issue with japanese tools for a couple of reasons, the care in making, the type of heat treatment (Which should be short duration an relatively low temp), but also because of the carbon content.

I keep a pair of stones to get an idea on hardness - a washita, and a broken in india stone. If a chisel will hone easily on a washita, it's around 62 hardness or lower. If it's barely hone-able, add a point. If it's hard to hone at all on the washita, then an india stone is a good indicator (but it has to be broken in). White steel around 66 hardness or so will start to be hard to abrade even on a broken in india stone (and steel at that hardness will never perform well). If it won't hone on the washita but do nothing but take a very blindingly sharp edge and will be a little tough to hone on a broken in fine india, it's just about right. That's somewhere around 65 hardness (I've made chisels that tested at 64, it's harder than that).

It's not uncommon for me to get a sales lot of older tools from japan and find a bunch of hardly used tools that were just tempered too hard and nobody wanted to figure them out. I've not yet had a non-cheapo older chisel come out of the kitchen oven and not be great (As in, some tools - ohio tool in the US comes to mind - will have irons that just aren't any good, but for a professional maker in japan to have made something like that when the stock isn't cheap, it just doesn't really happen).

For some reason the super over-tempered tools aren't that uncommon, though.

You may also want to look at the chisels that Stan Covington offers. Stan is also a good source for how to use and care for Japanese hand tools.. Thumbsucker's advise about how to use them is good. Since you shouldn't use them as levers, a useful tool is the Japanese version of a swan neck chisel, the sokozarai nomi. It is made for levering out chips from the bottoms of mortises.




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Thanks for all the comments you lot. Thumbsucker, how you doing mate?

Hi Waldo it has been years since we meet and I still remeber all the help you gave me - so much has happened moving to Canberra and going to university. Coming back to Melbourne before eventualy ending up in Gippsland for the last three years. Lots of changes and more to come. Life is change. I am not as active on the forum as I used to be but with covid wrapping up I will travel to Melbourne more often.