Dust Collection for small hobby shop

Hello, This is a great forum with a lot of information that I have been reading. I have been looking at dust collectors and was hoping to get some thoughts from people that have purchased similar units.

My shop is a small garage which I move tools around so I can still park in it. Its a cold climate so I do not want to place the unit outside, it will have to be inside with me (plan on using merv 15 filter).
Tools are; Sawstop table saw (with blade dust collection), bench planer, & jointer. All of those are 4", jointer could be 5" (i wont be increasing the port size at this time). I might get a jointer/planer combo that would have a 5" port. Maybe a bandsaw in the future.

Reading the forum and for the space i have it makes sense to get a dust collector to only handle chips and larger dust. Fine dust I will use a fan/filter system with a merv 15 filter that is capable of 10-20 air changes. This seems reasonable as im only making dust a few hours a week. With this goal I really only need 400-500cfm at the tool? as the 4" ports can only flow 400 from what i have read.

I have found 3 possible options which im not sure which would be my best option. Price of course is a factor.
1) I have seen the Camvac units with 3 motors. But I cant find reliable information on CFM. Manufacture says 340cfm, but there are sites claiming 500 even 900 cfm! Hard to believe. Be a good option if its true.
2) Oneida Mini-Gorilla. I would move this close to the tool and use as short of a 5" flex hose as possible. Oneida rates this at 583cfm with 10ft of 5" flex hose. This seems like a good option but its quite expensive. I think this unit also has the highest possibility of being leak free as well as achieving the 400-500cfm at the tool!
3) Get a 2hp unit and hang it on the wall. Looking at this one https://www.kmstools.com/media/kmsim...f/MI-11350.pdf It has a 12 3/4" impeller, a metal duct for the exhaust, as well as a 6" inlet. This appears to be most of the modifications in the 2hp dust sticky! I would add a merv 15 filter and run about 6 meters of 6" solid ducting to the middle of the shop with 1 drop which I would move a short piece of flex from tool to tool. Would this do 400-500cfm at the tool? This would probably half the cost of option 2. This option is also the most work of the 3 options.

I like option 2 because there is less setup to it, just buy-assemble then use. Another option could be to buy a small collector like a b-flux, moving it around the shop and be happy with the 400cfm it would likely produce?

Thoughts or suggestions?

Welcome to the forum David. How about putting where in Canada you live in you info? Makes it a little easier to reply. Victoria cold is not Yellowknife cold. :wink:

The CamVac is more or less a tripled up Shop Vac. So it will pull enough air through a 4" hose without loosing much to the internal drag of a duct or hose. Downside from what I remember reading is they are loud and have small barrels so they fill fast with planers and jointers. Filters are a little bit of work to clean. Some people put 4" dust deputies to them to cut down on the filter cleaning and capacity shortcomings. They are able to overcome the added cyclone losses because of the high pressure they operate at.

Oneidas have a loyal following and as you note, expensive.

The KMS will be cheap but if you put a cyclone to it it will end up being more or less the same as the Oneida. If you leave it stock and add a better, bigger filter it should perform as well as the Oneida or a touch better. A suggestion if you get one. Flip it upside down and hang it from the ceiling. Hockey pucks might help as anti vibration mounts. Certainly cheap enough. Flip the filter ring around so it is filter side up again. You will have to get up on something to remove the bag but the duct to the middle of the room can be without any drag inducing bends that you would get bolting it to the wall. You could also use a barrel under it with the bottom cut out of the bag between them. Easier to remove and empty outside.

Pete

Ok... desperation is definitely growing...I think I will keep covering my garage in sawdust

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Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Welcome to the forum David. How about putting where in Canada you live in you info? Makes it a little easier to reply. Victoria cold is not Yellowknife cold. :wink:

The CamVac is more or less a tripled up Shop Vac. So it will pull enough air through a 4" hose without loosing much to the internal drag of a duct or hose. Downside from what I remember reading is they are loud and have small barrels so they fill fast with planers and jointers. Filters are a little bit of work to clean. Some people put 4" dust deputies to them to cut down on the filter cleaning and capacity shortcomings. They are able to overcome the added cyclone losses because of the high pressure they operate at.

Oneidas have a loyal following and as you note, expensive.

The KMS will be cheap but if you put a cyclone to it it will end up being more or less the same as the Oneida. If you leave it stock and add a better, bigger filter it should perform as well as the Oneida or a touch better. A suggestion if you get one. Flip it upside down and hang it from the ceiling. Hockey pucks might help as anti vibration mounts. Certainly cheap enough. Flip the filter ring around so it is filter side up again. You will have to get up on something to remove the bag but the duct to the middle of the room can be without any drag inducing bends that you would get bolting it to the wall. You could also use a barrel under it with the bottom cut out of the bag between them. Easier to remove and empty outside.

Pete

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Hi Pete, unfortunately it seems I don't have the ability to change my profile. I guess its because im a new user. I also can't view pictures. FYI i'm in the prairies, so its cold. -30c cold.

On the camvac, I have seen people report loudness around 70db which is actually not to bad. I was planning to add a SDD. Its the low cfm i'm worried about, but people report success with them though. At least for chip collection anyway.

I really like the idea of the mini-gorilla as I dont have to spend time setting it up or worrying about if it will work well. As well a recent review measured loudness around 76db which is better then the 2hp units I have seen (usually 83db?)

At first I was thinking about using an Oneida super dust deputy with the 2HP collector but I think I have decided its not worth it as the filter would still need to be cleaned regularly anyway, not to much the effect on cfm. I was actually planning on hanging it near the roof upside down already lol. I was hoping Bobl would comment on how close this KMS unit would preform vs his modified one. It seems this KMS has a larger impeller at 12 3/4", I also have seen another version that looks the same but has a 12" impeller with straight blades (KMS has backward curved blades I believe).

At the top right of the page there is a Settings button. Opening it lets you make the changes. Pictures might be because you are new and need to make a few posts. I'm not sure about that. Below the dialog box is a Manage Attachments. As long as the pictures fall into the extension types you should be able to post them. If you can resize them so they aren't 3 or 4 megs down to a few hundred KB then those of us on rural internet won't nod off waiting for them to open. Maybe you are in the same boat and understand. I actually live just outside Saskatoon so know the cold you refer to all to well. Tomorrow is supposed to warm up to 0ºC before dropping again.

The Oneida is an out of the box solution as long as you keep it close to the machines. They are one of the few that have fan curves for their machines. Kind of depends on where you sit with the price. I only know of one Oneida, a 3hp metal version and the owner let them design his ducts. He wasn't happy as it under preforms, I assume because of the installation and ducting. I have also know two guys with 3hp Laguna short cone cyclones and they aren't living up to their brochure promises. Another gent has a King 3hp short cone cyclone and he is happy but his ducting is 6" and bigger plus the duct run is short. Once you get into the bigger (3hp+) the costs jump up a lot and then the ClearVue become a contender but they are more than you are looking for.

Ultimately you'll have to bite the bullet and pick one and see how it goes. Sometimes FB Marketplace and Kijiji have bargains that you could modify into a decent setup as long as the seller isn't getting silly with their asking price. I would suggest getting a particle counter and use it to guide you as to when you need to have your mask on. They have been discussed here a number of times and the cost keep coming down. $50 goes a long way with them.

Pete

What I find strange about the Camvac is that videos like this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLJCxyIQcK8) state that the CFM of the unit is much higher than the one declared by the manufacturer. This seems very odd to me. And I'm still very confused if the camvac will work fine with a 13" thicknesser or a table saw...

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Originally Posted by Jekkil

What I find strange about the Camvac is that videos like this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLJCxyIQcK8) state that the CFM of the unit is much higher than the one declared by the manufacturer. This seems very odd to me. And I'm still very confused if the camvac will work fine with a 13" thicknesser or a table saw...

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Yes it really does seem like you cant rely on the hand held anemometer, the cfm he gets for the 2hp is way off too. There is another video by hooked on wood working to shows cfm around 500 which is more believable.

Much of what is on Youboob is not accurate and you have to take what is said and demonstrated with a grain of salt. As David pointed out, fan type anemometers are the wrong instrument for small duct measurements. Being cheap and the fact that people see others using them is the reason you'll see so many exaggerated flow claims. Air has to speed up to get through/around the fan so the readings are higher than actual. In the Stickies at the top of the forum is how flow measurements should be taken. #2

The readings the Stockroom gent got in his video are what he is using on his website to flog the Record units. Record themselves claim 142l/sec (333cfm) for the 3 motor. I would trust the Record number as being accurate.

The advantage the Record has is the high static pressure overcomes hose drag better so the flow remains the same with longer hose before falling off where the HVLP DC has a low static pressure, the suction falling off faster.

Pete

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Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Much of what is on Youboob is not accurate and you have to take what is said and demonstrated with a grain of salt. As David pointed out, fan type anemometers are the wrong instrument for small duct measurements. Being cheap and the fact that people see others using them is the reason you'll see so many exaggerated flow claims. Air has to speed up to get through/around the fan so the readings are higher than actual. In the Stickies at the top of the forum is how flow measurements should be taken. #2


Pete

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The interesting things is there are a few video's where anemometer measurements appear reasonable. This one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyWQOec9m6o and also Matt Cremona has a few vid's, in both the numbers they are getting seem reasonable.

I have a feeling the camvac's do better then the manufacturer says and that the published numbers are through a 2" port (these units use to come with 2" ports), but thats only a guess. Also I have a feeling that the 3 motor camvac could perform better then a plumbed 2hp unit on tools that have 4" ports. Which I tend to think is how alot of people us 2hp units.

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Originally Posted by QC Inspector

The advantage the Record has is the high static pressure overcomes hose drag better so the flow remains the same with longer hose before falling off where the HVLP DC has a low static pressure, the suction falling off faster.

Pete

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This shouldn't be a big problem if you keep the length of the hose to a minimum (say less than 2m) right (which would be my case)?

Rule of thumb for an HVLP DC is flex hose is roughly 3 times the resistance of smooth duct. In other words 2m of hose is roughly equal to 6m of duct. A couple metres of hose shouldn't pose a problem but longer lengths would. I don't know how a bunch of loops or bends in flex affect the flow but would expect the ratio to be the same as elbows. Have the hose as straight as you can reasonably manage. Note some flex hose is smoother inside than others.

Pete

This might be a stupid question but I need to ask it.

The camvac is basically a vacuum machine with one, two or three motors.
The unit with one motor claims 115 CFM
The unit with two motors claims 229 CFM
The unit with three motors claims 343 CFM

A Scheppach dust extractors claims 109 CFM.

The two motor unit costs around $700. The Scheppach unit costs around $200.

What is the difference between using the two motor unit and two Scheppach units together? Theoretically speaking...

Just my opinion, and I am not familiar with the "Camvac" units you have chosen - but of the other two options, the Oneida unit with the cyclone would easi;y be my preferred choice.
Any unit where the dust / wood chip etc is sucked through the impeller and then blown to a separation / collection unit (such as the unit linked to in your third option" is a waste of space. The fact that the dust chip and wood chip passes through the impeller will quickly wear out the impellor, as well as the line above the impeller to the dust separator / filter unit will easily "bog" makes this a poor option. The most important consideration though, is that any metal that you may also suck up in your dust extractor (et nails etc) will also pass through the impeller and can easily cause sparks. Sparks in a contained environment with sawdust is potentially a very dangerous situation - explosions are known to have occurred in similar environments.

Something like the Oneida unit you have mentioned has the material separated from the airflow by the cyclone BEFORE it passes through the blower's impeller - the dust, woodchip and any metal picked up by the vacuum hose should drop into the bin below the cyclone and NOT pass through the blower / impeller. A much safer option.

I have a unit very similar to the unit you referred to in your second option Carbatec Portable Dust Collector - 2HP | Carbatec which I bought cheap when it was on special. I will not use in its current configuration for exactly the reasons I have quoted above, and also because the plastic bag for collecting dust / woodchip in is pretty useless. There are plenty of good videos on Youtube on how to convert one of these units into an effective (and safe) dust collector, and I am in the process of gradually building what I need. My final result probably won't suit your needs though, as it will be a fixed unit and quite possibly mounted outside. Have a look at the links below for ideas.

Being located in Canada, you would also have access to the "Clearvue" range of cyclones suitable for these applications. Unfortunately they are no longer sold here in Australia and freight costs between the US and Australia are a killer.
Check out ClearVue Cylcone Home | Woodworking Dust Collector | by Bill Pentz
You can buy complete systems from them, or buy an extractor fan elsewhere and match it to a suitably sized cyclone. I think you will find that this is the choice that most of us here in Australia would recommend if we had the access to these products.

Dust Collection System, Thien Baffle, Harbor Freight 97869, 61790, 45378 modification - YouTube
Thien Baffle & Wynn Filter for upgrade Harbor Freight Dust Collector-Woodworking with Stumpy Nubs 35 - YouTubeDave Stanton Live: How To Modify Your Dust Extractor To Capture More Dust! - YouTube

The ClearVue dealer in Canada is Branches to Bowls in Calgary.

Pete

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Originally Posted by BMKal

Just my opinion, and I am not familiar with the "Camvac" units you have chosen - but of the other two options, the Oneida unit with the cyclone would easi;y be my preferred choice.
Any unit where the dust / wood chip etc is sucked through the impeller and then blown to a separation / collection unit (such as the unit linked to in your third option" is a waste of space. The fact that the dust chip and wood chip passes through the impeller will quickly wear out the impellor, as well as the line above the impeller to the dust separator / filter unit will easily "bog" makes this a poor option. The most important consideration though, is that any metal that you may also suck up in your dust extractor (et nails etc) will also pass through the impeller and can easily cause sparks. Sparks in a contained environment with sawdust is potentially a very dangerous situation - explosions are known to have occurred in similar environments.

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I agree it's better to have the impeller after any separation to remove things like metal (to avoid impeller damage) but disagree about this causing impeller wear, especially in DIY setups. As a past member of a mens shed for a number of years where we were called in to collect gear from deceased estates etc we collected a number of old dust collectors. The oldest being a 3HP 3P unit from a local high school that was at least 60 years old, and I never saw any DCs with noticeable wear. Industrial situations might differ.

The chances of sparks generated in an impeller by metal passing through it and causing an explosion is also very low. The distribution of particles in wood dust generated by machinery (even sanders) simply does not favour explosions. A very specific fuel/air ratio is required for an explosion and the chaotic and turbulent flow through impellers means this is unlikely. A more like scenario is a piece of metal trapped inside an impeller, or an impeller blade coming loose and scraping the insides of the impeller housing, generating a constant stream of sparks that could start afire but I have never heard of this happening..

I have been following the topic of fires in dust extractor systems for more than 20 years and in all that time have come across 2.
One was in the US when someone sucked up a very hot piece of metal that ended up in a dust collector bag and it started a fire. This would be problem with dust collected before or after separation.

The other happened to my mate who was using a large panel saw to cut up wood with (unbeknownst to him) small nails in it.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/...highlight=fire
Again this would till be problem if dust was collected before or after separation.