An attempt at describing the importance of character in hand made dovetails

I've noticed that some scoff at the importance of 'character' in hand made dovetails. Usually, I'd say, there those who are into the jigged powered router method. The difference apparently is considered so subjective, its not even worth mentioning. But, to me, it can make all the difference.

I agree, its a tricky one. But I'm going to have a go at describing a couple of reasons why I feel hand made dovetails look better. Please, its all just opinionative. I hope no-ones quick to judgement on this. It probably quiet obvious to some anyway.

I think its all about things like 'depth' and 'movement'. About expanding the look of something, beyond just 2 dimentions, which makes it appealing. I'm under the impression, that this sort of thing is well sort after in art works and is actually taught. See that sort of thing in paintings like the Mona Lisa. Her eyes seem to follow you around the room, from what I've read, is due to different background scenes on the left and right side of her frame.

Look at this.... This is a draw from an old pine chest of draws I've been cleaned up for my wife. My MIL calls them 'poorman draws'. Apparently, all the poor people had these sort of chests. The dovetails are hand made and generally loose, and you'll notice particulary, that the saw cuts on the tails are way over cut. Obviously, they've been rushed. This is definetly a no-no, Right ? Pretty bad ! In the strive for excellence, one would never let that happen. I couldn't live with it either.
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BUT...If you manage to release those initial negitive thoughts on the overcut tails and forget about the importance of good fits etc... the dovetails start to look interesting. Look at it from back here. The drawn out lines at the pins give them 'movement'. Well at least to me. The whole thing starts to look windswept at each pin. Interesting. oooohhh, thats character. :D
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Now compare that with these. This is from a bedside table my wife bought before we got together. Its made by a well known furniture maker of this area. Lovely bloke and he managed to make a living out of making furniture. Which I think is impressive. But, I suspect he fibbed a bit when he said these were handmade. IMO, its clear there not, and I noticed a dovetailing jig in his shed too one day. The cheeky bugger.
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But the point is, these dovetails are not interesting to me, despite the fact their so perfect. No where near the appeal of the old poorly made chest above. And I think thats because, there are no little errors, nothing to help take its look away from being just 2-dimentional. Nothing, that helps to bring it to life. Instead it just looks static, like a still life, and unfortuneatly boring. You might as well get a stencil and just paint them on.

Now, heres a sliding dovetail I made by hand. I get quite enthusiastic about doing things by hand. And this is one of the better tests, while trialing an idea. I got this one spot on. Very proud of myself at the time. But now, some weeks latter, I look at it, and, it looks boring ! Why? same problem as before. Its too perfect. Bit of a paradox isn't it ?
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So, thats what makes handcut dovetails superior looking to machine cut ones. Mistakes !. I think its the little mistakes in handcut dovetails that tend to help give them more appeal. Just another of the reasons why I prefer hand tools.

with respect, I look at your pics and see poorly made handcut dovetails and precisely machined ones. I prefer the well fitted ones any day. however the make of your wifes drawer could have spaced the tails a bit better....

assigning "character" to inanimate objects is irrational. better spent assigning character to a basset hound or a pet sheep... but a cupboard ???

I hear people say thier machine / ill fitted drawer has character because "you need to take care or it will bite" - this is just so much horse manure.... what you need is to learn the correct techniques and stay within the bounds of saftey...

you say tomato....

note - I mean no offence - i like your statement/post - however disagree with your position...

I've got a set of drawers made by my Grandad that have half blinds like the ones in the first pic. He was a joiner by trade and that's how they did 'em.

I hate the second ones. Too uniform. I like to see weeny little narrow pins and nice big tails. A machine could be made to do a much better job than that if the bloke driving it knows how.

As an artist and a woodworker, I know what you mean, Apricot, but I'm struggling to put it into words.

You are looking for evidence that a human being (with all his faults) was involved in the manufacture of your furniture.....Zed is looking for perfectly made furniture, and doesn't mind how it's made, so long as it's well made. Neither is wrong....just different.

As an artist, I struggle to loosen up my brush-strokes and make paintings that are not mere photographs, but indicate whatever it was that inspired me to paint the picture in the first place! As a woodworker, I try to be precise and careful, but I'm only human, and things are seldom perfect!

Hi Jake,
I have an inkling of where you're coming from, but not being a particularly good at hand-cut dovetails I won't make a serious judgement. (For that matter I have even made a real hash of using a router dovetail jig and never gone back to trying it again!!) I think the narrow pins and wider spacings are really much more attractive than a uniform machined one.
My comment here though is the about "maker's mark", as you say, evidence of handwork. I don't think I'd call it mistakes, but little things like the scribe line from a gauge, I like seeing them left behind!
I get a real kick out of seeing parts in pianos that I've pulled apart with pencilled signatures and old style numbering from the German craftsmen over 100yrs ago. Ditto finger prints in convict era bricks.
In pottery (or ceramics) people talk about the hand prints and thumb marks left in 1000yr old pots that speak to them of the past. Furniture can be a little like that too.

Cheers, have a good Easter!:D

If you want to make a strong drawer then you don’t really have to use dovetails.
If you want the look of dovetails then the second drawer doesn’t have it.

So why bother using a jig if it only cuts boring looking dovetails (except Leigh DT jig). The mob who made the second drawer clearly didn’t have control of the size of end pins. Quick frankly it looks rather dull.

But I must say the first drawer does look very ordinary but it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.:o

I am not sure about this myself... There is something nice about handmade stuff, but to quote a jewellery teacher I once had,

"People who say that something has character because it is poorly handmade are just coming up with an excuse for not doing a good job."

Now, I am not having a go, especially as the handcut one you showed is perfect (to my eye at least) which proves that you don't have to make up excuses...

As for Andy's response, I can wholey sympathise with that, but there is a difference in leaving marks inside where only the adventurous go and leaving them where they may be seen everyday...

I guess I am probably closer to the perfect finish side. I treat the entire object as the art and the quality of the techniques used as the show of craftsmanship. But, this may have come from doing jewellery work where a dodgy joint will fail.

Cam

I think the issue with the first drawer is that it was probably made by someone who could do better, but was unable to because he was working under pressure. Simple economic facts probably laid a timelimit per joint that precluded careful work. Your MIL backs up that thought - poor people could not have paid for a craftsman to spend a couple of hours per drawer.

That's why they are machine cut or left out entirely in retail affordable furniture now. Economics in a production environment, and superior glues and methods. The only dovetails in all the furniture in our house are in old bits of furniture. Anything recent is buttjoined and glued, and we probably didn't even look at or specify the type of joints when we bough them. (my ww interest is only recent)

woodbe.

Interesting thread, Jake.

There is something in the thought that evidence of human frailty makes artefacts more interesting. However, it's not just the presence of errors that identifies character. It's entirely possible to mess-up a dovetail joint while using an el-cheapo dovetail jig. Would a row of evenly-spaced, obviously machine-cut tails and pins with ragged edges and evidence of tear-out possess more intrinsic "character" than a perfectly-executed machine-cut dovetail joint? Or would it just look more messy?

For me, the first of the two examples Jake illustrates - ie, the "poor man's drawer" is more attractive. It's not just the uneven spacing of pins and tails, nor is it the slightly inaccurate saw marks that make it more attractive. It is the (to me, anyway) unexplainable result of the combination of these things that tells you someone like you and me worked on the drawer and left behind marks of his presence for us to see.

The title of this thread is: "An attempt at describing the importance of character ....." Maybe it can't be adequately explained but only felt. Maybe if you can't feel it, you'll never understand it.

Col

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apricotripper

I get quite enthusiastic about doing things by hand. .

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We noticed........

Al :p

The handcut ones you show could be improved visually by just gluing appropriate wedges in the gaps.

The old timers used all sorts of workarounds like this on their stuffups.
Look at some of the antiques around.
Some of their dovetails could be pretty rough but they still made nice furniture which has stood the test of time.

I dont agree that mistakes equal character. They are simply mistakes.

It sounds like what my brickie says, "I love it when people want the rustic look".....Translation - I can drink as much as I want.

My mission is to make it as well as I possibly can. Perfect if that is possible. When I look at a box I like it when the lines are crisp and clean. When handcut dovetails are perfect. And yes I've seen such work. The one that's burned in my mind is the box I saw at the Guild display at the Canberra wood show. It looked perfect and even caught the eye of my 5 year old girl who wanted to take it home. To me the character was in the design and the obviously immaculate execution of the work required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boban

It sounds like what my brickie says, "I love it when people want the rustic look".....Translation - I can drink as much as I want.

.

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:eek: Your brickie drinks? :eek:

Heaven forbid......

Al :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

:eek: Your brickie drinks? :eek:

Heaven forbid......

Al :p

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Uncommon isn't it:eek: