cutting rosette channels

Hi, I'm just wondering what peoples tool preference for cutting rosette channels are?
tools i have are drill press, 1/4" router that could be used for this....
Is it easier to use a flycutter on the drill press or make a base for the router....the router is quite big and maybe clumsy for this task? maybe a dremel is better?
or the manual circle cutter LMI sells....or John grevens drill press rosette cutter...also sold by LMI....

Seems to be a lot of options for this task...and I'm just interested in what people have experienced using any of these or other methods ..
Thanks for any info.
Grant

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Originally Posted by gratay

Hi, I'm just wondering what peoples tool preference for cutting rosette channels are?
tools i have are drill press, 1/4" router that could be used for this....
Is it easier to use a flycutter on the drill press or make a base for the router....the router is quite big and maybe clumsy for this task? maybe a dremel is better?
or the manual circle cutter LMI sells....or John grevens drill press rosette cutter...also sold by LMI....

Seems to be a lot of options for this task...and I'm just interested in what people have experienced using any of these or other methods ..
Thanks for any info.
Grant

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Horses for courses Grant. My experiences as follows.....tried the Stewmac Dremel rosette attachment and hated it. I used the earlier version of the jig but my main issues with it are it flexes and depth stop knobs sometimes come loose. Fly cutter in a drill press.....tried it but dont like it, the cut wasnt very clean and I had a horrible feeling I wasnt in full control of the cut.

A Trend T5 router and a circle cutting jig.....does the job admirably. Router has some guts so makes a clean cut and the whole structure is rigid and depth setting knobs stay put. The T5 is abit bigger than a Dremel but I dont find it clumsy. If you check in the photos section of the forum Ithink Ive posted some photos of the T5 and circle cutter in action.

Cheers Martin

Hi grant, I've got the LMI drill press cutter and a manual circle cutter that I got from an engineers supplies years ago.
The drill press cutter is brilliant for quickly doing several soundboards at once, a great time saver.
However it depends on all the rosettes being identical in size. It takes a bit of time to set up so is not fast at all if the rosettes are differnt sizes.
Also I find it often makes a less than perfect edge to the cut. Its pretty good, as long as the cutters are sharp, and depends on the spruce too, some cuts cleaner than others.
I like the look of a really clean sharp cut for the rosette inlay though ( not that i always get it!)
So for that reason, and because I rarely do the same size in a run, I mostly use the manual circle cutter. For one off sizes its the fastest set up and makes a really clean cut.
To cut the wood out of the channel after cutting the circles i use a granny tooth router. Again a small hand tool thats quick and easy and does a clean job.
Jack

Grant, check out URL below for pics of the router/circle cutter in action.

If you want to go low tech then a paddle pop with a pin through one end and a scalpel blade through the other does an acceptable job.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...t=28852&page=2

Cheers Martin

A few more tips on rosette channel cutting:

1. One advantage to using a router is you can vary the cut direction to compensate for runout and get a clean cut. You will have noted runout while working a plane or cabinet scraper over the top before doing the rossette. The same applies when routing out binding channels.

2. Make test cuts with router in fingerboard area of top before cutting channel. If you muff the cut then the fingerboard will cover it when it goes on. If you want to be really careful, test cut into a polyeurathane chopping board. I use this method when doing fancy abalone inlays on my steel strings. Route the channel out on the chopping board and test fit the rosette. Once a good fit is achieved all you have to do is plonk the router on the chopping board and lower cutter till it bottoms out in the channel. The setting will then be correct for routing the top.

3. Many people use araldite for gluing in rosettes. I prefer titebond. The water in the AR glue makes the rossete swell a bit and minimises chances of any gaps around the perimeter of the rosette.

4. Scraping down a finished rosette versus sanding. I prefer using a cabinet scraper, especially where the rosette is dark coloured....run it an angle to grain and in towards sundhole if you can and again watch direction of runout.

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Originally Posted by kiwigeo

If you want to go low tech then a paddle pop with a pin through one end and a scalpel blade through the other does an acceptable job.

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Crikes... A paddle pop stick with a pin and scalpel blade?
I'd never have thought of that one, but I love it!!
A good one Martin! :)

thanks guys.....i will take all ideas into account.
although my drill press is pretty smooth i worry about how clean a cut you can get with the vibration and maybe a bit of play in the quill..?
so maybe a manual rosette cutter will be the way to go
although I'll need to buy a laminate trimmer for binding so maybe make a base for it to do this task also......

I like the idea of the popsicle stick.....you reminded me about that one ..i have read it in C&N...

and jack , is the granny tooth router called anything else?? is it a router plane of a particular model.. I can't find any info about them

Not my idea....I think it's in Campiano's book and I've seen it in a few other books as well. Im sure Antonio de Torres didn't have any routers in his workshop so I imagine he would have used something similar to cut rosette channels.

A hole is drilled at one end for the pivot pin and the scalpel blade just gets pushed through at the other end until a few mm of blade are protuding out the other side of the paddle pop.

Down side of this technique is having to chisel out the channel once you've gone around the sides with the paddle pop cutter. Not a big issue as long as you use a really sharp chisel and don't hog out too much wood in one go.

What I'd like to try on my next job is cutting the sides of the rosette channel with the paddle pop cutter and then routing out the channel. In theory the edges of the channel should be nice and clean if theyre cut with the paddle pop cutter as opposed to the router cutter and it means not having to worry to much about run out/cut direction. The reasoning is the same behind running a Grammel cutter over binding channels before routing out same...cut is cleaner and less chance of gaps when the binding goes in.

If you use the paddle pop technique, you can cut several concentric circles with the scalpel blade as a depth guide for removing wood by hand.

I'v never done a guitar but using a router to cut a shallow rosette channel seems like using a sledgehammer on a nail. Perhaps for mass production, but the amount of soft wood you are removing is so small I really wonder whether its worth the bother and the risk?

I can see where routers work wonders on neck grooves, solidbody electric cutouts and bindings, but keep small jobs simple, no?

I got my computer here setup for photos! SO heres my rosette cutting kit.
The circle cutter is like a metal adjustable version of the paddle pop stick idea!
The router is Stanly part no 271..although i got it back in the 80's, but they should still be around.
The channel cut into the scrap I used to stage the picture was actually cut as a test by the drill press mounted thingy
Jack

I do like the idea of doing it manually but one thing that I'm not sure about is excavating the smallish channels (like the black/white/black purfling type width circles)
The larger channels would be ok with a chisel or like jack suggested ....one of the manual routers....
maybe some micro chisels ( I did a search while writing this and notice LMI has 1 & 2mm chisel and stewmac has a set of micro chisels)....

This could be a good way to go ....popsicle stick idea (although LMI's manual cutter looks easy to adjust) and chisels...


which by the way i have found some of those toothless granny routers...hansbrunner tools and the toolexchange always has some interesting things
http://www.hansbrunnertools.gil.com.au/

http://www.toolexchange.com.au/

cheers thanks, for all the ideas and photos

Grant,

Get the small LMI chisels..theyre very useful for lots of things. I have the full set and use them all the time.

Toothless Granny routers...forget 'em. Get a decent router with plenty of power and one that's not likely to lose its settings halfway through routing out a Rosette channel.

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Originally Posted by contrebasse

I'v never done a guitar but using a router to cut a shallow rosette channel seems like using a sledgehammer on a nail. Perhaps for mass production, but the amount of soft wood you are removing is so small I really wonder whether its worth the bother and the risk?

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A rosette can usually done a bit quicker with a router but doing it by hand is fine. The time saving is in removing the material in the trench. The downside is getting a rough cut on the sides of the channel. The latter however can be minimized by careful planning of cut direction. Risk of mistakes is also reduced by always doing a test cut in fingerboard area.