Latest insert tool

[Frank&Earnest]

Ever heard of Escoulen and his bedan? He is reputed to do all sorts of woodturning with it. It consists of a square or slightly trapezoidal bar sharpened at a 30 degree angle and the cut is made with the corners.

Well, this tool is more versatile than that, because the side of the corner is also sharpened instead of being blunt The cutting action is more easy to master because of the less acute bevel. The action is the same as the bedan's, but this tool also allows shear scraping, works well as a hollower and is unsurpassed to scrape flat box bottoms. If you look back at some of my old threads I have demostrated the previous version built with a square bar turning anything from 1mm finials to boxes to large bowls.

By using a square TCT insert with a 60 degree bevel mounted on an exagonal bar (316 SS), all three cutting sides have a continuous bevel for the whole thickness of the shaft. It can be used bevel up or bevel down or at 60 degrees for a shear action always maintaining the support of the flat sides.

The cost of these tools has been the subject of a lot of discussions. The photos are of my hand carved prototype, but I have found the sources for the materials and had the machining costed by a tool maker. It can be produced here for $40.

I wonder whether the rounding of the tang is really necessary in this case: fitting the exagon in a 10mm hole could probably be good enough without the need to turn it down to fit a 9mm hole.

If enough people are interested, I would be happy to organise the production of a small batch and mail it at cost. My apologies to the retailers.

[jefferson]

Frank,

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but if your tools have bevel-rub, then they are not scraping??? Or are they?

And if they are not scraping, is there a difference between your tools and say the Easy Wood Tool range? I think there is and by a margin.

And if you achieve bevel-rub, why not seek out cutters with say a 30 degree cutting angle, so the metal behind it is also supported, allowing for more detailed cuts? Or would the cutters be too brittle?

Food for thought - and more questions than answers. Apologies.

[hughie]

F&E

Interesting, I guess one would need to try it to get the full story. When time presents its self I will have a go at making one my self, I have a lot of used TCT on hand.

[Frank&Earnest]

Frank,

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but if your tools have bevel-rub, then they are not scraping??? Or are they?

I am not a turning expert, I look at it from purely a mechanic point of view. My definition of the difference between cutting and scraping is that when the working surface of the blade (whatever the angle of the bevel) forms an acute angle with the wood, in the direction of motion, it is scraping, when it forms an obtuse angle is cutting. The simplification "when the bevel rubs it is cutting" is always true, because by definition the bevel is < 90 degrees, but is just a part of the whole. Depending how high or low you hold it, you can scrape with a chisel and cut with a "scraper". I posted a rough sketch someplace before.

And if they are not scraping, is there a difference between your tools and say the Easy Wood Tool range? I think there is and by a margin.

Quite substantial. I see my tool as an improvement of the bedan, made possible by the insert, not as a variation of that range. Anything is possible, of course, but would you even think using those tools bevel up?

And if you achieve bevel-rub, why not seek out cutters with say a 30 degree cutting angle, so the metal behind it is also supported, allowing for more detailed cuts? Or would the cutters be too brittle?

This would need a couple of pages in itself, but in short I think that that geometry would not improve the tool and, yes, I think it would be too brittle, but one can always experiment. As regards detailed cuts, I am already happy with 1mm finials. Hope you are not still talking about the fact that deep sub-mm v-grooves are indeed a bit difficult with a 60 degree bevel...

Food for thought - and more questions than answers. Apologies.

No need to apologise, thanks for asking. The 70 lurkers before your post must have been happy with everything I said....

[Frank&Earnest]

F&E

Interesting, I guess one would need to try it to get the full story. When time presents its self I will have a go at making one my self, I have a lot of used TCT on hand.

By all means. To anybody who does not already have the components for one, it would cost much more than $40 because of the minimum commercial quantities one has to buy, plus whatever you value yout time at. By the way, I have no objection if you want to make a batch yourself if you can, to spread it among the forumites: I have to have it done by somebody who has the right machinery.

[hughie]

By all means. To anybody who does not already have the components for one, it would cost much more than $40 because of the minimum commercial quantities one has to buy, plus whatever you value your time at. By the way, I have no objection if you want to make a batch yourself if you can, to spread it among the forumites: I have to have it done by somebody who has the right machinery.

Your most generous, at this point I would be only doing it for cost for a few friends and or close associates.

But a Youtube video etc and a small C10 cutter upside down would get it off the ground and running. In fact all those who have such cutters only have to turn it up side down to have some thing very similar. food for thought for the lurkers

[Frank&Earnest]

Your most generous, at this point I would be only doing it for cost for a few friends and or close associates.

But a Youtube video etc and a small C10 cutter upside down would get it off the ground and running. In fact all those who have such cutters only have to turn it up side down to have some thing very similar. food for thought for the lurkers

Sorry, I don't get it hughie. The C10 insert is round and AFAIK all the shafts in the range are square. How would turning them upside down make them in any way similar?.

[hughie]

Sorry, I don't get it hughie. The C10 insert is round and AFAIK all the shafts in the range are square. How would turning them upside down make them in any way similar?.

Sorry, I typed wrong tool type, I meant the square tips.
If we have one of these and turn it upside down and operate in this manner we have a tool very close to what you have designed. OK maybe we have to grind a bit away here and there to get the shaft clear of the cutter, and the shaft is square. But it would be enough to get the idea and then change the shaft shape, length etc.

[rsser]

Escoulen's bedan's included bevel angle is about 30* IIRC.

[Sawdust Maker]

I'm getting mighty confused - or I might already have been there and this has just pushed me over the edge

F&E can you take a piccy of the tool with the cutting edge up against a bowl or whatever to show us [whom are slow on the uptake] how it cuts. and maybe one of the shaft on the usual position on the tool rest

thanks in anticipation

[new_guy90]

how long have you been using this tool? what sort of insert are you using? have you sourced them from the engineering industry or are they the specific inserts for wood??

just a point the first guy to invent or at least market these tools is an guy called Joe on PM he has a website selling all sorts of stuff and he still sells the wood turning tools i just cant find his website i just cant find it right now anyway his are very nice not to expensive and he gets a his own inserts stamped to his own specifications..... not trying to rant or give him a plug

if you cant guess already i hate these home made carbide tools the idea is good i just don't like the idea of using something so hard and often blunt because steel cutting carbide is not razor sharp and is made for steel if you want to look for a better alternative look for the very sharp plastic cutting inserts or those for aluminum or give these guys a call they make HSS inserts and they do custom orders so you could engineer them for wood

sorry for the rant i think these tools are a good idea but they need way more work to convince me to use them

[Frank&Earnest]

Escoulen's bedan's included bevel angle is about 30* IIRC.

Yep. That's what I meant with "It consists of a square or slightly trapezoidal bar sharpened at a 30 degree angle and the cut is made with the corners.". Apologies for my imprecise expression.

[Frank&Earnest]

I'm getting mighty confused - or I might already have been there and this has just pushed me over the edge

F&E can you take a piccy of the tool with the cutting edge up against a bowl or whatever to show us [whom are slow on the uptake] how it cuts. and maybe one of the shaft on the usual position on the tool rest

thanks in anticipation

Happy to oblige, but I have a minor technical problem: no proper camera and no cameraman to do it. I have already posted quite a few stills but I agree that they are not very illuminating. I'll do the next best thing to give you an idea.

The cutting action on a spindle is how Escoulen describes in these videos, and the continuous side bevel makes it easier and equally effective bevel down:


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Fvo4smGZk"]YouTube- The Bedan With Jean François Escoulen Tokyo Japan Part 2[/ame]

The cutting action inside a bowl (bevel down) is how Ern describes in this video, except that the square blade is more appropriate for wide radius curves and the round blade is more appropriate for small radius curves (in both cases, the hexagonal shaft makes shear scraping at 60 degrees easier, both inside and outside a bowl):
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/eas...-there-114916/ post #26 embedding the video

For the square bottom of a box it should be intuitive: you scrape the side with the side bevel and the bottom with the front bevel, nothing could be easier. You can do it on any radius, even very small, with the Ci1 it can be done only on wide radiuses.

I will look for a filming opportunity, for the moment I hope this can help a bit.

[Frank&Earnest]

how long have you been using this tool?

This tool only a couple of days, its previous versions about one year.

what sort of insert are you using? have you sourced them from the engineering industry or are they the specific inserts for wood??

Leuco #182443, 14.3 x 14.3 x 2.5, made in Germany specific for wood (it is the same stuff used in spiral thicknesser blades).

just a point the first guy to invent or at least market these tools is an guy called Joe on PM he has a website selling all sorts of stuff and he still sells the wood turning tools i just cant find his website i just cant find it right now anyway his are very nice not to expensive and he gets a his own inserts stamped to his own specifications..... not trying to rant or give him a plug

Plug away, I am not in this for the money. Competition will sort out the most effective tools.

if you cant guess already i hate these home made carbide tools the idea is good i just don't like the idea of using something so hard and often blunt because steel cutting carbide is not razor sharp and is made for steel if you want to look for a better alternative look for the very sharp plastic cutting inserts or those for aluminum or give these guys a call they make HSS inserts and they do custom orders so you could engineer them for wood

See above. I know very well that those inserts are cr@p.

sorry for the rant i think these tools are a good idea but they need way more work to convince me to use them

See above. If that is what you base your assesment on, you are right.

[RETIRED]

The missing link: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMDPE8i4LiQ"]YouTube- The Bedan With Jean François Escoulen Tokyo Japan Part 1[/ame]