Water stones and sharpening techniques

[andrewsd]

Hello all. 2 questions:

1. I have been using a sharpening system for chisels and plane blades based on a diamond plate followed by 3 water stones - 800, 1200 and 4000. My technique may be off, although I do both the back and the bevel of blades and spend a fair bit of time on each. I am unhappy with the edge I get using the above system. What grade waterstone do you go up to so that you get a razor edge?

2. Has anyone got a better system to recommend. I have seen a couple of articles recommending wet and dry paper on a glass sheet backing. Does this work as well or better than water stones?

Thanks

A

[chrisb691]

Hello all. 2 questions:

1. I have been using a sharpening system for chisels and plane blades based on a diamond plate followed by 3 water stones - 800, 1200 and 4000. My technique may be off, although I do both the back and the bevel of blades and spend a fair bit of time on each. I am unhappy with the edge I get using the above system. What grade waterstone do you go up to so that you get a razor edge?

2. Has anyone got a better system to recommend. I have seen a couple of articles recommending wet and dry paper on a glass sheet backing. Does this work as well or better than water stones?

Thanks

A

I can't advise on whetstones, but if you do a search for scary sharp you'll get the wet and dry method. This really does work!!!

[mat]

What exactly are you unhappy about with the edge? Do you get a mirror finish front and back? You should get a mirror finish with 4000!

Do you hone a microbevel as well?

[silentC]

I get a razor sharp edge with the same stone combo you are using. Are you using a honing guide?

[MikeW]

Hi Andrew,

While I do sharpen to a higher grit stone--8k in my case--when working I usually only hone to 2k. Then usually each morning while having coffee, I sharpen the previous tools back to 8k grit.

However, a couple points here.

First, once the back is flat, you do not need to continue honing it regardless of sharpening medium.

You will need to lightly, and with the back flat on its back, remove the wire edge produced with one or two swipes on the stone.

I assume you flatten your waterstones regularly? If not, it can be a source of trouble.

The whole point here is that if you cannot obtain a decent edge on what you have, you may have trouble on another sharpening medium.

Do you use a guide of any type? If so, which one? If not, how do you go about sharpening now? Perhaps it will be simply giving direct advice based on what equipment you have now.

Take care, Mike

[derekcohen]

Hi Andrew

Rule #1: You only polish the back of a blade once in the case of a chisel, and once in the case of a plane blade that is not backbeveled (never put a backbevel on a chisel anyway).

If you are using anything under your highest grit on the back of the blade, you are undoing all your work. Do it once and leave it be.

Rule #2: The primary bevel MUST show a wire edge on your coarsest grit before moving to the next one up the line.

Don't be tempted to remove the wire edge with your coarse grit (see Rule #1). Only do this with your final polishing stone.

Rule #3: The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge. A minimum is a 6000. Incidentally, the King 4000 stone I have is a shocker - too hard and just glazes over. Incidentally, I use 800, 1200 and 8000 King waterstones. The 8000 is expensive but twice the size of the 6000, which is a good stone too. I hone with Veritas green rouge (crayon), which is good for approx 9000 grit. The finest diamond stone is about the equivalent of a 1200 waterstone.

Rule #4: A good edge is a clean edge at the appropriate bevel angle. For paring chisels, I prefer 20 degrees (which is only going to work if your steel han handle this), with bench chisels at 25-30 degrees, and mortice chisels at 35 degrees. Plane blades vary widely. Bevel down planes use either 25 or 30 degrees (not critical), while bevel up go from 25 - 50 degrees. To make sure that this is done both swiftly and reliably, I use a honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

See, by saying "The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge" you're going to make him think that it's necessary to go out and spend a fortune on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone, when it's clear that the stone is not the problem. I have been using a 4000 grit stone for a three years now (the same one) and, I know we have had debates about what is "really sharp", but I have found it more than sufficient for my purposes.

[CameronPotter]

Good call Silent.

[derekcohen]

Silent

It is all relative, but I don't think that $45 for a 6000 waterstone (that will last several years) is excessive. As much as the 4000 may work for you, it does not come close to working for me when it comes to planing hardwood. It would be very important for Andrew to say what he wants to do with his blades, which would guide the advice on grit level.

Nevertheless, I did emphasise (albeit it hurriedly) that getting a clean bevel is important, and this is where Andrew should start (that is, using his existing grits). See "Rules" 1 and 2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

They've come down in price since I last looked!

My point is just that (and I have been through this myself) it's very easy to start blaming the equipment and thinking your problem lies in not having the right gear. Refer to all the pages of posts we have here already about people going from the grey wheel to the oilstone and being happy with the results. If you can be happy with the edge you get from the 800 - 1200 - 4000 think how happy you will be with the 6000 or 8000.

[CameronPotter]

Yep. That was who I interpretted it too. Get the fundamentals right, then worry about the specifics.

Cam

[bitingmidge]

All of the above is good advice, but unless you are consistently sharpening at the same angle, you won't get there!

I know there are many on this board who sharpen by hand, but those like me who only get to it a few times per year (or less) will pretty much only succeed by using a jig of some description, no matter what the sharpening stone/paper/diamond medium may be.

I think the Rolls Royce of those is the Veritas MkII and wouldn't be without mine, but there are others that work satisfactorily for a lot less money.

Sandpaper (scarysharp) works well, and it is what introduced me to what sharp blades are really like, but I am not alone in thinking that they are just a step on the way to buying waterstones!

I have the same setup as silentC, then hone finally with a bit of Veritas Green stuff on a piece of MDF. I'm no sharpening expert, in fact I'm barely proficient, but it does the job very well.

Finally, flatten your stones. I use Derek's method: a piece of 10mm glass and a bit of plasterboard sanding mesh, but before that I used the face of a concrete block. You'll find that most concrete blocks have been autoclaved and have cured to a very flat surface, but make sure that's the case with the one you pick won't you?

Hope that helps too!

Cheers,

P

[Waldo]

G'day,

There's tonnes of different ways to sharpen your blades. For my 2¢ I hollow grind on the bench grinder and using a MrkII Veritas Honing Guide run it over a corse Arkansas Stone then a super fine oil stone. I lap the back, bevel edges and sides freehand and with all this I get a scary sharp quality finish with a mirror finish. BTW thanks to Wood Borer for the demo in his shed one Saturday.

Simple and works for me. I take my time doing it so I get a top result and it's relaxing. Although I've cut through several fingernails in the process of sharpening.

[Toolin Around]

See, by saying "The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge" you're going to make him think that it's necessary to go out and spend a fortune on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone, when it's clear that the stone is not the problem. I have been using a 4000 grit stone for a three years now (the same one) and, I know we have had debates about what is "really sharp", but I have found it more than sufficient for my purposes.

I'm with Derek on this. I've never found a 4000 grit stone that would give me the "sticky" edge I desire. The sort of edge I like is one where I can actually go against the grain without tear out and you can't do that if the finest grit you use is 4000. My finest stone is a 6000 and then I buff the bevel side of the chisel.

[damienhazo]

Don't have any experience with either the Mark II:

Attachment 23641

or the Trend, but if the point is getting a consistent angle, the Trend looks like a good idea:

Attachment 23642

Here's the link if anyone's interested in finding out more:

http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/fasttrack/

Damien