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31st October 2022, 09:51 AM #1Novice
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Adhesive for laminating bench top
Hi guys, I about to laminate some Maple or American Oak for a bench top and was wondering if anyone has experience with adhesives for lamination? I'm in Brisbane, so I'm mindful of heat and humidity. I was thinking of using Titebond (Original or II) as the bench is not in a wet area. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
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31st October 2022 09:51 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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31st October 2022, 12:29 PM #2Taking a break
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I like polyurethane because it doesn't creep/swell over time. It is messy though, so use a drop sheet underneath and wear gloves
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31st October 2022, 01:32 PM #3SENIOR MEMBER
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As long as your edges are perfectly parallel any wood glue will do the trick. I've used cheap glue from Bunnings for items built ten+ years ago and no signs of it not lasting another ten. I've also used tight bond 2 and 3 for various projects and have yet to have an issue. You do get glue creep, but its not a big deal for me to use an alternative adhesive.
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31st October 2022, 08:05 PM #4SENIOR MEMBER
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Any of the Titebond glues will be fine but I'd consider 3 as it has a longer open time. Gives a bit more time to get things in place.
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31st October 2022, 11:42 PM #5China
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I use Australian products when ever I can so Aquadhere or nighingale PVA would be my choice just as good as Titebond (just not as Fashionable)
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2nd November 2022, 11:39 AM #6SENIOR MEMBER
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When ever glues are tested it seems they're measured against titebond... It's most likely Titebond is made in the US, and I think Gorrila glue is also... Most of the others are probably made in china without any western quality control.
I've made the mistake of using a pva glue commonly sold at bunnings and had failures with it. I wouldn't use such glues since, even if they were free. So for me it's titebond 3 or gorilla yellow glues exclusively. The added cost is far less than repairing failed glue joints.
YMMV
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3rd November 2022, 05:55 PM #7SENIOR MEMBER
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Poly is good for the points mentioned by elanjacobs. Unobond polyurethane is great because it comes in a caulking tube and has a thicker consistency than typical poly glues so it doesn't make a mess and drip everywhere. After 1hr scrape off the foamy squeeze out with a dull chisel. For simple panel glue ups can get them out of clamps after 1hr.
Putting Unobond To The Ultimate Test - YouTube
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16th November 2022, 07:39 PM #8
Whats glue creep?, all I get when I google it is this:
"a guy who borrows your glue bottle and then doesn't give it back"
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16th November 2022, 07:59 PM #9Taking a break
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PVA can reabsorb moisture and swell up slightly over time (years, not months), resulting in fine ridges along the glue lines. PU cures by chemical reaction and is completely inert so you don't have that problem.
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16th November 2022, 09:17 PM #10
When I was doing my City & Guilds in furniture making back in the late 70's/early 80's the lecturer did a demonstration on how PVA can creep and then eventually break it's bond. He glued a block of wood 4" x 4" x 8" onto a longer piece 4" x 1" x 18" and then fixed the longer piece to the wall with a weight attached to the smaller block and then every week when we had his class we would measure how much the 4" x 4" x 8" had moved down the wall (the creep factor) over a period of a few weeks it creeped by more than 50mm before breaking it's bond
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17th November 2022, 03:52 PM #11
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17th November 2022, 05:26 PM #12Taking a break
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From these guys TimbaTech Products - TimbaTech Pty Ltd
PU15 for small stuff, PU60 for big stuff when you need extra working time
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22nd November 2022, 09:39 PM #13
I use mostly American Oak and exclusively use Titebond III
I like the simplicity of having one glue that pretty much works for everything
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23rd November 2022, 12:09 PM #14
This may or may not be of interest to some.
In almost 40 years I've only ever had 3 glue failures and I think it was Titebond (can't remember exactly which brand, but pretty sure it was Titebond) or some other newish yellow glue from USA when it first came to Castlemaine (Central Victoria) in the mid to late 90's. Twas touted as being the best thing since rice bubbles at the time.
So... around 30 years ago I used on joints for 2 dining tabletops, 1 mahogany and 1 old kauri pine, and also on a mahogany mirror frame, glued up ready to carve. All 3 failed within weeks. Never, ever, had this happen before then and wondered if it was the timber. Mahogany was top grade kiln dried, the kauri was over 100 years old recycled from old school cupboards and none had ever been a problem in the past.
Contacted the supplier at the time (no idea who) and they said it may have been frozen and if it had it would be pretty much useless.
Went into the hardware shop in Castlemaine and discovered the box of glue had been out in an open shed during a couple of Castlemaines infamous minus 6C nights. They had no idea that it was no good after being frozen and didn't know it had actually frozen or not. Exchanged for a large bottle of Selleys Aquadhere, plus a lot of hours repair work to tabletops and mirror frame.
For what it's worth: We used to run harp making classes when I had Central Victorian School of Woodcrafts and the glue of choice for strength, joints and no creep, was polyurethane from a boat building supplier in Tas. Those harps get put under a heap of pressure and to my knowledge there was never a glue failure in and of the students work or the harp makers commission work.
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24th November 2022, 10:12 AM #15
I have read (& experienced!) that the wood each side of a joint can absorb the water from the glue & swell, & it pays to wait a few days before sanding/levelling a glued panel. I didn't know PVA glues could re-absorb water, but that may explain some of the observed properties of the early brews.
Well, PVA curing is also a chemical reaction, the glue molecules suspended in the water polymerise as the water is absorbed/evaporates & the mixture becomes more concentrated (same for hide glue, only the molecules are bits of "natural" collagen, not a synthetic chlorhydrocarbon). Unless steps are taken to prevent it, it's a reversible reaction, which is why the first generation glues were rather susceptible to failure when exposed to water or very high humidity. Subsequent iterations have this tendency minimised or prevented altogether by various means.
"Creep" is the result of plasticity of the cured glue, so they can 'creep' under load. All PVA glues are thermoplastic (they get 'softer' as the temperature increases), to some degree & the "basic" glues like Aquadhere were markedly so. In my early days I had a few things glued with Aquadhere literally fall to bits under moderate loading on very hot days!
I have only used PU glues a couple of times in my life & decided they were a bit too messy for me (or is it that I'm too messy for PU? ). I prefer to use good 'ol hide glue where high loading is likely, but it's not a glue for everyone - fussy preparation, short open time and too easy to wreck if you over-cook it. If I hadn't been introduced to it by blokes who knew how to use it very early in my career, I doubt I would have been persuaded to even try it. However, if you want "authenticity" in reproduction stuff, and the ability to reverse bonds (relatively) easily, it's a good way to go. It's not that hard to work with once you become used to it. Hide glue is more susceptible to water than simple PVA glue, but quite a bit less thermoplastic, so it doesn't creep noticeably under load (which is a reason it's used so extensively for constructing stringed instruments, as well as its reversibility).
An inexplicable failure problem I've experienced has been glueing northern silky oak with PVA. In the cases that failed, the joints were not under much stress (except for a seat for a child's chair), and the failure occurred several years after glue-up, not immediately. The glue-line just let go along the entire length, leaving a fine white powder on both surfaces. I assumed there was something in the wood that had reacted with it, causing the polymers to break down. It would rarely get cold enough round here for glue to freeze so I don't think that was the problem. It can certainly drop to <10* C at times, and the instructions do say not to use if the temp is likely to drop below 10* within 10 hours after assembly. I have been guilty of pushing the boundaries on that a few times, so it's possible that contributed to the problem in at least one case, but not in all of them....
Cheers,IW
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