Thread: Domino Alternative

Baten screws are great for strength in tension, but in shear strength you often find the timber around them will fail before the screw. This sort of construction is where large timber joints are best; M&T, bridal joints, even half-lap joints glued and screwed.

Another thing to consider with glue is what will happen to the joint if the glue fails. In a large M&T this might be recified with screws or cross-pins, fine. With a glued butt joint that relies on biscuits for strength you might be stuck.

My parents had a 1920's club lounge with hardwood frame which was getting quite tired and the frame was getting very loose. When they had it re-upholstered the gentleman doing the work repaired all of the failed joints without having to replace a single peice of timber because of the construction used.

But, perhaps you're not making furniture that's intended to last a century.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

bridal joints, even half-lap joints glued and screwed.

Thats a good idea - and I have the ability and tools to do that simply and quickly. I'd probably use dowels instead of screws. Though, the guys in the restoration section put me onto hide glue for this type of thing, as its easy to pull apart/restore if/when required. I assume this is what the guy did with your folks lounge.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

perhaps you're not making furniture that's intended to last a century.

Whilst my original idea might seem brash, I generally build things to last. I'm not going to spend $2500 on upholstery for it to fall apart in 10 years

Originally Posted by Elill

Whilst my original idea might seem brash, I generally build things to last. I'm not going to spend $2500 on upholstery for it to fall apart in 10 years

Perfect excuse then to buy a Domino, just have to convince your Minister of War and Finance.

(well someone had to write it )

Cross-pinning all your joints is a great way to go. The only reason I suggest screws is because clamping accros something as big as a lounge can be difficult if you don't have all the right gear. Because it won't be seen screws are perfect for fixing joints while the glue dries.

In the case of the club lounge I beleive some of the joint timbers were failing, not just the glue. It was a long time ago but I believe there were quite a few coach screws involved.

Apologies too, I wasn't suggesting you didn't intend to build to last. I tend to over-build a lot myself, and I have to give myself a little reality check from time to time.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

Apologies too, I wasn't suggesting you didn't intend to build to last. I tend to over-build a lot myself, and I have to give myself a little reality check from time to time.

Nah all good, I'd react to my original question in the same manner if someone else had posted it - makes me sounds like a complete hack

I like the idea though. It means a $5k lounge will "only" cost me $2500-3000, a pretty good saving......which can be applied to a Domino right?....if only we had the cash sitting around, unforunately not

Thanks again, I'll post some pics if/when it eventuates - another thing to add to the "to-do" list

I spent a year in Israel making the woodwork for sofas and other soft furniture...back in '95-96 , doesn't time fly? - all was joined with big , nasty double nails (I mean U-shaped) , you won't believe how much does it hurt to hit a finger with that - glue and nailgun , that was all . - so , Domino is probably an overkill , but if you can get away with it - buy it anyway!

buy the Domino and when your project is finished.. sell it
les

Pocket hole screws are another alternative to the Domino. You can even use them instead of clamps when biscuit/Domino/dowel joining frames, then take the screws out when the glue has dried & re-use them.

Several years ago one of our posters said that was what they did in a furniture factory he worked in, which explains why I can't get those screws out of the deep holes in old furniture - there aren't any in there.

You could also consider loose tenon joints made with a router. If you have a router & a plunge bit then all you have to do is make some tenon stock from off cuts & possibly run it past a round over bit to make your own Domino like shapes (this has been around for years, long before the Domino or even Festo)

If you use biscuit joins, you could also just go back after the glue dries & whack a few dowels into the joints - no worries about the holes not lining up

I use beadlock for these type of quick-and-dirties. Here : Beadlock

Very much cheaper then domino, and I think maybe a bit stronger. A bit slower though.

I bought the router bit too, to make my own stock which I do out of very tough hardwood.


Arron

ps. edited to remove comment on strength of Domino. Just realised I was confusing it with another tool.

Originally Posted by bsrlee

If you use biscuit joins, you could also just go back after the glue dries & whack a few dowels into the joints - no worries about the holes not lining up

Thats a pretty good idea, which I had thought about doing in the past.

Many thanks for all your replies, I'm looking forward to doing this ina few months

Hi Elill,

The Domino is a precision machine for use in precision applications.I've had one for years. Furniture carcassing for upholstered furniture isn't in this league. Buy yourself a $70 doweling jig and use 12.5 mm dowels with a quality glue. If you haven't got appropriate sash or bar cramps by all means pull the dowel joints together with dirty great screws
( avoid putting them through the dowels! ). Robertson screws from Sachys are good and have a great driving system. If all hope is lost then use bugle screws.

Old Pete

With something like a sofa you will need better strength than that provided by batten screws. Over time metal fatigue & possibly rust will cause the joints to fail. Lots of racking forces on a sofa! Also, you will get no glue strength from any joints that have end-grain to end-grain, or end-grain to long-grain. So any post & rail style joint would be relying on the mechanical strength of the screws only (If your design has lap joints, that is just fine & you can use screws as a clamps. The strength will come from the long-grain to long-grain glue surface)

Alternatively, you could use one of the many so called knock down fittings, such as barrel nuts & bolts. There is enough strength in the heavy duty versions of these to make reasonabley durable joints. You need 2 sets per joint & seasonal movement means that there is likely to be losening over time. Last time I bought some they were over $5 a set - so not cheap & not really the best for a job where you are planning to spend a lot on upholstery & want durability long term.

Beadlock is fairly cheap & works OK but I found it slow & fiddley - you need a bit & router table to cut the tenons, or otherwise buy them in. It seemed more suited to smaller scale M&T work. I got rid of my jig. tahn would be used in a sofa, so you would have to muck about with more jigs to get a double tenon.

If you have a router, why not make a morticing jig & use loose tenons? (If you don't have a router, get one!!) Does not take much to knock one up - plenty of plans on the net. See this for example

Jessem have a portable slot mortice jig that uses a standard power drill, haven't seen prices recently but recall about $250.

Leigh FMT pro Mortice & Tenon jig is about $550 & can cut mortice & tenons up to 1/2" x 5". You need to supply a router for it.

If you plan on a lot of M&T joinery in the future, you could look at a horizontal slot morticer & loose tenons - Carbatec machine is about $750 or so.

Personally, if I had a very limited budget but want durable joints (& as I have a router already ) I would use a router with upcut spiral bit & build a jig.

The ultimate in speed & flexibility is to pony up & buy the Domino - you won't regret it & if you ever want to sell, you will get most of the money back - Festool stuff in good nick retains a lot of its value. In fact you could plan to do this & count the small loss as your "rental"!! Just remember that you not only need to buy the Domino machine, but you need a good dust extractor as well - you will have problems if you try & use it without one.

WRT glue - Titebond III gives a longer open time, so less stress with alignment during glue-up. It is very strong.

Big dowels maybe.

The frames will be hardwood 2x4 and laminated plywood for the curved arms. This last point I haven't decided on yet, as I've never made anything with a curve in it - dont have a bandsaw but was looking to get a good (Metabo, I understand it craps all over the Festool) Jig Saw. I need to look at how curves are made (two bits of 2x4 joined at an angle and rounded off?)

I had more or less decided to go with half joints and big dowels.

I've got 4 rather old routers and no idea how to use them. One is the hitachi that every man and his dog seem to own, a hitachi trimmer, an large Elu thing (new motor in it), and something else. Anyone know if there is a market for these? I should try to flog them to fund a domino purchase. I'd prefer to buy a newer (safer) router that is compatible with my festo guide rails.

Anyway, thanks for the advice to date. It gives me things to think about in terms of my future woodworking.

RossM - I've got a Festool CT26 for my TS75 and Kapex, so that's covered if/when I buy one.

I normally use titebond I, but was thinking about starting with hide glue....not sure about that.