Thread: Timber veneer cabinet finish deteriorating

Hi Michael,

Timber cabinetry and polished concrete floors (or benchtops) is a lovely combo. I'm sorry to see that your cabinetry veneer is failing like it is.

It does appear to be water damage and I understand why it seems hard to believe given the kickboards would be closer to the water and are not showing any damage. Having worked in a plywood mill 'back in the day', and at times stacking the veneers and cores in preparation for the glueing and pressing, I think I might have a possible answer.

Packs of veneers are prepared just ahead of pressing due to the fact that they dry out and split more readily when mixed (ie. the face, back and core veneers). The ends are always more prone to drying and splitting and this can affect the glue application prior to pressing. One of your photos shows a split which will have occurred as the veneers were being interleaved together. Judgement calls are made as to whether the veneer fibres will come together when pressed and I am sure they did at the time but it's always these flaws which fail first when exposed to humidity extremes.

I believe the reason why the kickboards haven't failed will be two-fold. First, because they will be cut from a more internal part of the plywood sheet where the glueing and pressing process will have been more efficient, and second, because the kickboard has likely been cut crossways against the closed, long fibres of the pine rather than the open ends of the fibres. Hoop pine plywood is cut rotary in one long piece (like peeling and apple down to the core in one piece). The short ends of the plywood sheet are always the top and bottom ends of the log. At these ends are the open ends of the fibres which are responsible for transport of water, nutrients, photosynthesis products etc in the living tree. They naturally will draw water in when they get wet, even after they have been turned into solid wood and veneers. They also dry out more readily.

I think the best thing you can do is keep applying a hardwax oil like Osmo to the cabinet doors, concentrating on the edges to prevent water penetration into those long timber fibres. Also on the corners of the kickboards because they could be next to go (those cut, long fibre ends again!).

I hope this helps a little bit and that you have some luck preventing further damage.

Originally Posted by MichaelTolhurst

Hi
First post in this group as I'm not sure where best to get advice on this. I've got some timber veneer cabinetry that's been installed in my home and in certain areas the veneer is deteriorating at the end of the board where it meets the edge strip. It's three years old. The cabinetmaker is telling me that its water damage. And it does feel like water damage. But its not exposed to any water. I was told it might be moisture escaping from the concrete slab, or from mopping with too much water too close. Neither stacks up for me because none of the kicks below these panels show any signs of deteriorating.
Have attached a couple of photos for reference. It's a hoop pine veneer.
First image is a freezer drawer. Second image has already had some Osmo wax applied by the cabinetmaker to reduce the whiteness.
My concern is that these are going to continue to worsen over time.
Any advice on what might the cause would be very helpful for future discussions with the cabinetmaker.
240429_freezer drawer.jpg
240429_kitchen pod.jpg

Check under the cabinet door, has it been edge banded or left bare?.

I would be applying something a little more substantial than OSMO HWO to be honest, especially in a kitchen.

Contact Home - Timber Veneer Association of Australia for advice.

Good morning Michael and welcome to the Forum.

To my inexpert eye that looks like a dry glue joint that may have been caused by:

• Too parsimonious in application of glue, and/or
• Uneven pressure of cauls during clamping.

You can verify this by gently rubbing your finger outward along the bottom of the door. The slightest movement in the veneer verifies no glue.

Then follow Moby's advice.

I think the fact it is a freezer drawer is the key. Moist air condensing on a surface made cold from opening will damage any surface unless it has a hard surface coating.

Concrete slabs need 4 to 6 weeks to release moisture and the thicker the slab the longer this will take, bedrooms with carpets can smell from mold because they have been laid too soon. With your kitchen being exposed concrete (no ceramic tiles) then any porous material near to the surface will suck up moisture, so was the kitchen installed just a few days after the concrete slab was laid?

As mentioned by 1980 TA plywood veneered boards are not the best quality around the edges this can be partly down to the manufacturing process or damage caused through transport and a good Cabinet Maker would not try and use this part of the board, but rip it off as waste, they would also visually inspect the surfaces for defects before spending time & money on edgebanding them, looking at your cabinets it looks like they have applied a thick lipping rather than say a 1mm discreet edging tape, this type of lipping needs a more expensive edgebander to apply it, so this may have been glued on by hand and the glue could have failed due to poor workmanship or a internal none waterproof glue was used which could not cope with the moisture in the air.

You could try removing the effected doors/panels and store them until the moisture content is correct and then have them refinished, or just replace what your not happy with.

its hard to tell from the image, but i'm going to go against the notion that its water damage, as you say, kicks are not damaged and there isnt any signs of moisture ie mould/wood greying over time. Also if it was water damage, that kind of damage ie only towards the bottom would be pretty obvious what's causing it, ie water leaks etc, but going back to the first point this would also deteriorate the kicks as well.

its hard to tell by the photos, but looking at the first photo looks like some kind of filler was used, which depending on what was used could hinder the finish's ability to absorb evenly. The second photo looks like some tearout had occured which causes the finish to absorb at different rates.

Is the finish cracking? or is it mostly cosmetic?

What sort of air-flow goes through that area of the house?

In my experience that sort of damage in that location is generally caused by moisture condensing on the fronts of cabinets, when cooking or boiling a kettle without an effective range-hood.

It only takes a light misting on the cabinet face for rivulets to start running down to that area, which can be very easily missed while one is busy doing other things, like using the area for it's intended purpose.

Large, open-plan areas are just as susceptible to this as tiny cramped kitchenettes, depending on how well the air naturally flows around the area.

Originally Posted by 1980s_TA

Hi Michael,

Timber cabinetry and polished concrete floors (or benchtops) is a lovely combo. I'm sorry to see that your cabinetry veneer is failing like it is.

It does appear to be water damage and I understand why it seems hard to believe given the kickboards would be closer to the water and are not showing any damage. Having worked in a plywood mill 'back in the day', and at times stacking the veneers and cores in preparation for the glueing and pressing, I think I might have a possible answer.

Packs of veneers are prepared just ahead of pressing due to the fact that they dry out and split more readily when mixed (ie. the face, back and core veneers). The ends are always more prone to drying and splitting and this can affect the glue application prior to pressing. One of your photos shows a split which will have occurred as the veneers were being interleaved together. Judgement calls are made as to whether the veneer fibres will come together when pressed and I am sure they did at the time but it's always these flaws which fail first when exposed to humidity extremes.

I believe the reason why the kickboards haven't failed will be two-fold. First, because they will be cut from a more internal part of the plywood sheet where the glueing and pressing process will have been more efficient, and second, because the kickboard has likely been cut crossways against the closed, long fibres of the pine rather than the open ends of the fibres. Hoop pine plywood is cut rotary in one long piece (like peeling and apple down to the core in one piece). The short ends of the plywood sheet are always the top and bottom ends of the log. At these ends are the open ends of the fibres which are responsible for transport of water, nutrients, photosynthesis products etc in the living tree. They naturally will draw water in when they get wet, even after they have been turned into solid wood and veneers. They also dry out more readily.

I think the best thing you can do is keep applying a hardwax oil like Osmo to the cabinet doors, concentrating on the edges to prevent water penetration into those long timber fibres. Also on the corners of the kickboards because they could be next to go (those cut, long fibre ends again!).

I hope this helps a little bit and that you have some luck preventing further damage.

It's just hard to understand how it can be water damage. Even though it does look like water damage. The freezer drawer with the split is 100mm or so above the floor. The split was apparent quite early and some 'filler' was applied. My opinion at the time was that if the veneer is split it shouldn't have been used. It was actually Mirotone Mirowax that was applied (not Osmo). The freezer drawer panel could potentially be replaced (although the grain currently matches the fridge door panels above so disrupting this would be a shame). But the fixed panels would be much more challenging to replace and would probably end up with other issues.

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

Check under the cabinet door, has it been edge banded or left bare?.

Yes there's a multi-layer veneer edge band.

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

I would be applying something a little more substantial than OSMO HWO to be honest, especially in a kitchen.

I checked and its actually a Mirotone Mirowax that has been applied to the areas showing water damage. Especially around the corner where the veneer meets the edge band.

With you being new to the Forum your replies will be vetted and not be posted instantly, but for now they show in the Activity Stream

Originally Posted by double.d

I think the fact it is a freezer drawer is the key. Moist air condensing on a surface made cold from opening will damage any surface unless it has a hard surface coating.

Yes, I thought it being the freezer drawer couldn't be a coincidence. Except the damage is also on the opposite side of this joinery unit (where its actually worse).
If veneer (or this type of veneer) isn't suitable for an integrated fridge/freezer then I'd expect the cabinetmaker (being the expert) to advise accordingly. He actually suggested the hoop pine veneer because he wasn't keen to work with plywood which was the aesthetic we were looking for. But I'm sure I see veneer used like this all the time. It's disappointing because it was not inexpensive.