Thread: Japanese knives.

The Shun Classic Santoku continues to impress with its edge and handling. Left handed steak trimming was a breeze.

I notice it has a double 2ndary bevel bevel like a Western knife; the Nakiri OTOH has no 2ndary bevel.

PS I'm now spoiled by the edge quality of these knives and have taken a critical look at all the western knives. And read Lee and Hock on knife sharpening. So, there's 3 knives that need jointing Will have to get my nerve up for that.

Yes Neil, a black wheel on the Tormek would be nice, but the price!!

How about a Shapton glass stone at around 4000 grit?

Have dabbled with a King 6000 in the past but found it high maintenance.

Ern, unlike your nakiri which is a fully handmade knife for the Japanese user, your Shun sentoku has been designed specifically for western users. As westerners tend to use secondary bevels, Shun have added one. It's easier and cheaper for them to do so. On the other hand, all the handmade knives I have bought directly from Japan have the traditional flat bevel. It's an east-west thing

I have been gradually working back the secondary bevel on our Shuns, but that's a personal preference. Please yourself, there is no right or wrong way. If you work the secondary bevel back you are going to end up with a more acute and fragile edge... more like your nakiri, but it will cut beautifully. Maintaining the secondary bevel will give you a more robust edge, which will require more effort to use unless you keep the secondary bevel size down to a minimum by also constantly reworking the primary bevel. Being a woodworker, you will understand all that of course!

Haven't used the Shapton Glass stones myself, but understand that they require less maintenance. So Yamashita thinks they are good for Japanese steels.

I have been going down to 4000 grit on the kids' knives and they say that gives them a good working edge. Your Tormek 1000 wheel is about the equivalent of 1500 on the Japanese waterstone scale, and 4000 is a manageable step down from that.

Happy to have a separate discussion on your natural stone when you finally get around to giving that a spin.

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Thanks for the continuing education Neil; appreciate it.

Hmm, well the Shun is now feeling dulled so I tried to give it a few strokes with the small natural stone.

Pretty ineffective, prob due to my lack of fine hand control ATM.

I'm happy to maintain the two bevel angles as they are and try again with the Shaptons, 1000 and 4000. Holding the blade at a constant angle is going to take some practice. Wondering about cutting wedge from card to get the right tilt to begin with and take it from there.

Does this sound like a sensible/feasible approach?

Ern, if the Shun has got to the stage of feeling dull, then it's prob too blunt to sharpen on just the natural stone, which is likely to be a final polish stone. You could keep the blade sharp with this stone but would have to use it regularly well before it feels it needs it.

So its back to at least the #4000, if not the #1000.

Not sure that card would last long on a wet abrasive stone. Jigs are a challenge with knives. Something like the Side Sharpening Skate Honing Guide that Derek Cohen reviewed or Brent Beach's plane blade jig might be adapted for straight edged knives like the Nakiri, but I can't immediately think of a jig that would work effective on the continuous curve of the Sentoku. Just remembered this rod-guided jig for knives (near bottom of page) that might work on a curved edge.

However, if you have at least one and a half good hands you should be able to sharpen freehand OK, when you get the hang of it. I use three fingers on my left hand to apply firm downward, pressure directly above and along the bevel (as close to the edge as comforts allows) and the right hand just holds the weight of the knife up under the handle to prevent the weight of the knife rocking the bevel away from the edge. The handle is swung out beyond the stone allowing the fingers of the second hand to cradle under the handle. Sharpen the right bevel along the right of the stone and the left bevel along the left side of the stone. Here is a photo of Shinichi Wantabe (using just two fingers) using the correct grip. Well, correct according to a sixth generation knife maker from Sanjyo-city, Niigata-prefecture, Japan...

Have a play and see how you go, Ern

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Will do.

Thanks for all that v. helpful info and links.

If I fixed the knife and brought the stone to it, it'd be easier to see if it was going right, but rocking of the stone would be harder to control than rocking of the blade.

Anyway, I'll use the felt-tip pen mark trick.

Incidentally, Carbatec now sell a simple kind of guide: plastic channel section with a ceramic insert to slip onto the top of the blade. You'd be stuck with one bevel angle of course.

Last week among a group of friends over for lunch there was a Japanese guy so I showed him the two knives. Turned out that his grandfather had been a knife maker so I dragged him to the shed and the waterstones to see what he could remember of sharpening a Nakiri.

He thought that I needed to be using lighter quicker strokes somewhat diagonally across the stone, and said his Pop liked a slightly dished stone.

Originally Posted by rsser

Last week among a group of friends over for lunch there was a Japanese guy so I showed him the two knives. Turned out that his grandfather had been a knife maker so I dragged him to the shed and the waterstones to see what he could remember of sharpening a Nakiri.

He thought that I needed to be using lighter quicker strokes somewhat diagonally across the stone, and said his Pop liked a slightly dished stone.

Interesting, Ern.

I've seen that short stroke method used by the Japanese, about 1.5" forward and 1" back progressing down the stone. It reduces the tendency to rock the bevel, but must admit I don't use it myself except on small chisels and knives.

Happy going diagonal to the stone with knives, but I'm not convinced about the dished stone. Might get away with it on curved edged knives like sentoku, but I would have thought it definitely a no no for straight edged knives like the nakiri and all straight edge chisels and plane blades. I think it would also be problematic for the flat back of blades, which includes most traditional single bevel Japanese knives.

Some very old used Japanese chisels that I bought had slightly convex bevels when they arrived. I just put this down to laziness on the part of the daiku in not keeping their waterstones flat. But I could be wrong about this?

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Well, my nakiri does have a slight curve ... ?

Dunno.

Got a good edge anyway at 8000 but the polish along it wasn't terribly even. It'll take a few more working ups from 1000.

Hi Ern,

Funny your friend mentioned his father liked a dished stone.

Coincidently I needed to touch up an old 230mm Japanese Sashimi knife I bought, (secondhand) on a waterstone. The knife needed work on both the flat back and the bevel. It just happened that the stone I grabbed had a bit of a hollow in it.

I used the diagonal, push 1/2 forward, 1/4 back, 1/2 forward sort of action and found it easy to keep the blade flat on the stone as it registered on two places, on either side of the stone. Anyway I liked the way it felt, quite stable and so did not bother trying to flatten the stone further to take the slight hollow out. I did keep it flat overall the edges though, if that makes sense.

I was happy enough with the results.

Cheers
Pops

Originally Posted by rsser

Well, my nakiri does have a slight curve ... ?

Got a good edge anyway at 8000 but the polish along it wasn't terribly even. It'll take a few more working ups from 1000.

Righto, the slight curve would seem to indicate that the blacksmith wasn't trained in the Tokyo style which is more typically straight. Perhaps Osaka tradition.

Should be cutting quite nicely at #8000, Ern...

On the unevenness, a couple of our knives are still slightly uneven in a few areas due to some areas of the bevel being very slightly concave when we first got them. I put the slight unevenness down to the way that they are initially ground on the large grinding wheel (makes the Tormek look a bit puny, eh!) which the subsequent sharpening and polishing on the flat waterstone by the knife makers hasn't fully removed.


Knife sharpening on waterstone wheel.jpg

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Wow, that's a Tormek on steroids.

Yes, re unevenness along the length, there are still some grind marks at the heel.

And yes Pops, with a light quick touch the blade won't be pushed into the dish in the stone though why you would choose to go this way ....

Originally Posted by rsser

Yes, re unevenness along the length, there are still some grind marks at the heel.

My approach to these residual areas has been to just leave them and let them be gradually worked out over time as the edge needs resharpening. As always, the primary requirement is to get the cutting edge in contact with the stones along the full length of the knife. Any other areas of unevenness in the bevel are just aesthetic imperfections. Why waist any of that lovely cutting steel for a bit of visual appearance!

That 230mm Japanese Sashimi knife sounds like a good buy, Pops. Do you know the maker?

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Yes, I figure that in time it'll be ground away. Doesn't interfere with the use of the knife.

I must say it was a confidence booster for the first attempt just having someone alongside me who knew a bit about the business.

And his testing approach was to bring the edge 90* to his thumbnail lightly and see how it caught being pushed sideways.