Thread: new carbatec product

Ern, at the risk of making it sound like "Respiratory Pathophysiology 101", there are a few facts every woodworker should be aware of.

In general, the most dngerous prticles are those 2 microns(u) and below. They are NOT filtered by your average dusty, and can remain suspended in the air longest, & reach the very depths of your lungs - all the way down to the alveoli, which is where the good stuff happens (& sometimes bad).

There are several different ways the particles can affect you. Some woods contain toxic chemicals of sufficient potency to damage the cells of your respiratory tract. The cells of the upper tract are protected by a mucus layer(snot!) to some extent, but the cells in the alveoli are least well-protected, so finer particles are the worst as far as they are concerned.

Even non-toxic particles are not good - we have highly efficient mechanisms for dealing with them (I doubt anyone on this forum hasn't seen how effectively snot traps particles!), but the systems can be overloaded, meaning more bad stuff gets down deper. Furthermore, having to deal with a big influx of inert particles affects our immune system in various ways that we are only beginning to understand, but it can make us a lot more susceptible to infectious agents like bacteria & viruses.

In the worst case, the particles contain chemicals that can kick off processes that lead to cancer. Even apparently inert particles can do it, in some cases (asbestos!).

Then there are allergenic materials. An allergic response is just a normal response to something foreign, but taken to excess. The reaction can be anything from skin rashes to full-blown, life-threatening asthma attacks. Allergic responses are the most difficult to control because the reaction is out of all proportion to the nature of threat and the amount of allergen involved - the minutest amount can trigger a life-threatening response in an individual who is highly sensitised. The only safe way to deal with this if you are one of those unfortunate people is by steering very clear of the wood, period, or going to inordinate lengths to avoid any sort of contact with any part of your body.

As said, we have very efficient mechanisms to keep crap out of the most vulnerable & important parts of our lungs. They have evolved to handle the sorts of environments our ancestors inhabited, and a small amount of non-toxic fine dust breathed in occasionally is usually no problem. But if you are sucking it in, in large amounts and frequently, that is NOT a good thing for your long-term health. If you are unlucky enough to be addicted to nicotine as well as wood, you should be doubly careful!

Cheers,
(removes professorial hat.....)

Ian, wise words.

I don't recall arguing against good protection and over the years have made similar points to yours. Inc. the info that Pfizer was working on inhaled drug delivery @ something like 4 micron particles cos those stuck in the lungs.

Maybe you had SB in mind with your response?

Whatever, as my kids say.

SB my msg to you is this: good protection is not cheap, but treatment for nose and throat cancer (the most common cancer outcomes) is a damn sight dearer and a lot less comfortable.

Originally Posted by rsser

Ian, wise words.

I don't recall arguing against good protection and over the years have made similar points to yours. Inc. the info that Pfizer was working on inhaled drug delivery @ something like 4 micron particles cos those stuck in the lungs.

Maybe you had SB in mind with your response

Ern -I wasn't aiming at anyone in particular, just putting out some info so people could make "informed choices" as they say. I guess my point is that you need to protect yourself against different nasties, but you may not always know which one. For example, most people wouldn't recognise the difference between an allergic reaction and a straight 'toxic' effect, the first time or two it happens. Neither is a good thing, but allergic reactions are perhaps worse because they tend to get worse on subsequent exposures, while you should have the same response to the same dose of a toxic chemical.

I'm the last person to throw stones, at anyone. Because I use machines intermittently, I am often a bit careless about dust extraction, and it frequently surprises me how much garbage appears on the tissue when I clear the old snoz. Each time it happens, I tell myself I ought to know better.......

Cheers,

Sorry Rsser, it does not change my point. My dust mask still does the job better than most. My point is that it is relatively cheap and confortable to use and after using my mucus is clear. More expensive is not necessarily better and as I'm finding more and more as I order from overseas, Carba-Tec does not do us any favours when it comes to price. I still find I can order a Veritas or Incra product and have them shipped here for less than we are asked to pay without shipping in Australia. At $399 I think most hobby woodworkers would question the price. IanW, your information is very informative, thanks, it is at a timely point when many of us will be working in our workshops over xmas and new year.

SB

PS I think the product is fine and I'm sure it works well and has a market.

I looked at that mask but opted for the Trend full face mask because of face fungus. It takes a bit of getting used to and I'm still not comfortable with it. For the life of me I can't understand why no one makes a cheap system with a light weight full mask and a long lightweight hose and a remote blower. I mean something for the small workshop. Yes a hose might be a trip hazard but I'm thinking of a hose run overhead on some kind of retraction system (like a retractable dog leash) or perhaps a split system for workzones with stop valves at each end.
Blower would be mounted outside so no expensive filters needed.
A blower vacuum cleaner can be very cheap, so there's no reason a correctly spec'd blower couldn't be cheap. It could use mains supply so no need for batteries and remembering to charge.
The mask just needs to be a simple full face mask with a shroud and a hose adaptor, could be cheap.

So why hasn't it been done?

I have a Triton helmet & a 3M Half face.

OnlineToolReviews.com - Triton PRA001 Powered Respirator Review

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...0Schematic.pdf


I use the helmet when there is a chance that stuff will hit me in the face or get in my eyes.

I use the 3M half face for the rest.

I can't see the advantage of the powered half face unit over the 3M unit.

Our eyes also breathe. Oxygen in carbon dioxide out. Thats why contact lens wearers see hallos after prolonged wear. Irritants can affect the eyes as much as the lungs. Full face, positive pressure, the only way to go.

Originally Posted by mic-d

......I'm thinking of a hose run overhead on some kind of retraction system (like a retractable dog leash) or perhaps a split system for workzones with stop valves at each end.
Blower would be mounted outside so no expensive filters needed.

Michael - sounds like a feasible DIY project. I'm sure I've sen a few similar home-mde setups over the years. I'd still put a filter of some sort over the intake - if only to keep passing hornets out of the system!

Originally Posted by mic-d

So why hasn't it been done?

Probably not enough profit-margin....

Cheers,

My guess is that this form of PPE has been the field of litigation, understandably, and manufacturers are not cutting corners and maybe are looking for high profit margins in case.

SB, while the snot test tells you something, it's the particles smaller than 4-5 microns that go in the airways and don't come out ... and do their damage without you knowing it. These little beasties will be floating in the air in your workshop for hours after they've been generated.

In past posts I've argued that we need multiple forms of protection/extraction. We turners generate a lot of dust in sanding and have to be more careful. But if the Yank OH&S professionals are right there is no safe level of exposure.

Michael, yes, systems like that have been built and posted about on the web. 'fraid I didn't bookmark them.

Curses! I thought I had my first novel idea!

Originally Posted by rsser

Michael, yes, systems like that have been built and posted about on the web. 'fraid I didn't bookmark them.

Well, by definition, for you it is a novel idea ;-}

It was a long time ago that I read the webpost: someone rigged up a faceshield with a 'skirt' to go under the chin and up the face sides; attached to the plastic headshell a hose that went through the roof with fresh air pumped in by means of a scavenged fan. A mesh filter as IanW suggests could be handy unless you have a taste for chewing flies or spiders.

Drawback is obvious; you're tethered by the hose.

Meantime, persist with the Trend. You'll get used to it. I've got an old model and find in time it 'disappears' and it filters well.

Hi all.
4 of us bought masks from USA. I find mine very good & I have a Beard.
I can wear it up to 3 Hrs. at a time, & no trouble with my Glasses fogging up.
The trick is to make sure you fit it correctly before you start.
In that time it develops quite a bit of Condensation, & it would drop a drop onto my work.
I overcame this by using a Tissue, in the Bottom where the C lays.
We went through this last year some time.
Blackwood is my Demon, so I fixed that quite easily.
I don't Turn B/Wood anymore.
The only time it is a problem, is when you are doing a Demo, as you are unable to be heard with the Mask on.

That mask relied on a face seal.

Not good for face fungus unless you have fine beard hair and are prepared to slick down the hair with Vaseline.

The Triton, Trend and other powered filtered visors or masks produce positive pressure around the face, so you're sucking in filtered air, not escapee dust particles from the perimeter of an unpowered mask.

Originally Posted by rsser

...SB, while the snot test tells you something, it's the particles smaller than 4-5 microns that go in the airways and don't come out ... and do their damage without you knowing it. These little beasties will be floating in the air in your workshop for hours after they've been generated.

Ern - good point. I didnt make that clear in my original post. The stuff you see in your snot is the 'good stuff' - particles large enough to be trapped in the mucus layer. But it's telling you that there was likely smaller particles that went all the way down. However, if you're not getting a nose full of dust, it is some indication that the mask is doing its job. Just make sure your mask is good to an appropriate particle size, if you choose this route.

As to 'safe levels', this is a big can of worms. Pathologists & toxicologists argue about how these figures are arrived at. Without going into a boring discussion of technicalities, let's just say that there is always a 'threshold' level, below which our body systems can cope. The level may be very low or relatively high, but go over the magic figure and trouble follows. The threshold level for wood dust is almost certainly more than zero! This is NOT to encourage anyone to be careless, just to reassure you that you almost certainly don't need to lie awake at night worrying because you got some dust up your nose occasionally. Just don't do it 8 hours a day, regularly!

Cheers,