Thread: Flattening stones

Sorry. No clue about the grit.

-The diaflat is 1.66 times bigger than the atoma. It will be bigger
than your waterstones so it is better for flattening waterstones
in that regard than the atoma.

-The Diaflat is certified flat(.0005) whereas the atoma is not,
but AFAIK almost always flat enough.

-The Atoma seems to have less stiction issues due to how the
diamonds are placed whereas the DMT did have this issue. The
diaflat is 120 grit which is really course and should not have this
issue.

-The Atoma, AFAIK, is like the diasharp and duosharp an electroplated
diamond plate which means the diamond are kept in place by a nickel
layer. The Diaflat supposedly has a new hardcoat technology which
should make it last much longer. Time will tell if this is true. DMT will
not tell about their hardcoat technology, but in their youtube video
the salesman talks about a ''revolutionary technique'' which makes
it able for ''extreme use'' and the hardcoat technology gives ''extreme
long wear resistence''. He continues by telling that other diamond plate
sellers say that their plates should not be used on coarse or very hard
stones, but the diaflat can be used for all stones you wish.

-The diaflat costs 145USD(cheapest I have seen) from Amazon and the
atoma #140 is from 85USD(in Japan) and 110USD(USA).

The Diaflat seems a better choice to me, but time will tell. There is
only a 35 dollar price difference and for that you get a significantly
bigger plate that is hand certified to 0.005 flattness and has a new
hardcoat technology which(supposedly)makes it much more long
lasting and you can use it for ALL of your waterstones.

All this information aside, both the atoma and DMT are good diamond
stones.Now it would be great to get some real experiences here from
members.

Sazman

I've been using the Sigma #400 to flatten my waterstones for a few weeks now.

I doubt this would work with harder stones, but I've got Kings.

It works quickly, leaves a great finish, and takes a few seconds.

It's also an extremely handy stone in its own right, and I'd highly recommend it anyway. Great for lapping backs, best thing I know of (except maybe SiC on a plate, but that makes a huge mess). Because it leaves such a fine finish, I've also been using it to establish a microbevel before using the King 1000 to take some wear of the Kings and save time.

Best of all, if you're concerned it's not flat, a bit of plate glass and SiC grit will fix that (although I should mention it's a huge pain to flatten, being so hard).

Incidentally, the stone is about the same size as the others. Someone on this forum (I've forgotten who) described to me the correct process of flattening to ensure that the relatively small stone doesn't cause further dishing - it essentially involves rubbing the stones together at a diagonal angle, something like sharpening a knife on a steel (for want of a better explanation)

Honestly, one of the reasons I'm going to stay with my Kings is that diamond plates just sound like a hassle, and are crazy expensive compared to what I've got now.

There's always SiC on glass, but it's messy.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

I've been using the Sigma #400 to flatten my waterstones for a few weeks now.

I doubt this would work with harder stones, but I've got Kings.

It works quickly, leaves a great finish, and takes a few seconds.

It's also an extremely handy stone in its own right, and I'd highly recommend it anyway. Great for lapping backs, best thing I know of (except maybe SiC on a plate, but that makes a huge mess). Because it leaves such a fine finish, I've also been using it to establish a microbevel before using the King 1000 to take some wear of the Kings and save time.

Best of all, if you're concerned it's not flat, a bit of plate glass and SiC grit will fix that (although I should mention it's a huge pain to flatten, being so hard).

Incidentally, the stone is about the same size as the others. Someone on this forum (I've forgotten who) described to me the correct process of flattening to ensure that the relatively small stone doesn't cause further dishing - it essentially involves rubbing the stones together at a diagonal angle, something like sharpening a knife on a steel (for want of a better explanation)

Honestly, one of the reasons I'm going to stay with my Kings is that diamond plates just sound like a hassle, and are crazy expensive compared to what I've got now.

There's always SiC on glass, but it's messy.

Pyramid, I can't comment on the 400 as I have not used it. Basically
what you are saying is that the stone stays flat a long time and is
coarse enough to flatten your 1000 grit and 6000 grit stones without
losing its flatness.

There is no such thing as correctly flattening waterstones by using
another coarse waterstone diagonally or something like that. The only
thing that might work is that the coarse waterstone dishes super slowly
and you flatten it before use. This way your 1000 and 6000 grit stone
would be flattened by the 400 and the latter stone would only have
minimal dishing.

Let me tell you something about flattening. It is absolutely essential for
great results. I was in the beginning flattening my stones when I started
thinking they might have gone unflat. Now I flatten them every time
just before I start using them. A lot of lines with a pencil, a bit of SiC
powder on the glass plate with glass foil or mylar, some water and GENTLY
move the stones over the abrasive, no pushing down. When all the lines
are gone, thoroughly clean the stones with water.This is actually a cheap flattening
method.

-Floatglass 30cm by 30cm by 1cm thick will cost you 10 bucks or less I guess.
The glass will never lose flatness if you protect it with mylar, glass
foil etc..
-1 kilo of Sic powder about 5-10 dollars. Will last for years.
-Glass foil or something similar 5 bucks. Not sure how long this will last.
You can put 2 layers of glassfoil next to each other. On one layer you use
very coarse SiC powder for your 120 and 400 stone and on the other layer
you use something like 200 grit for flattening your 1000 and 6000 stone.

Good luck mate.

Sazman

I agree, I became especially aware of the importance of flatness after trying to sharpen the iron for my number 8 jointer on unflat stones. Because I use the Veritas honing guide for most things, lack of flatness is generally pretty obvious now - much less so freehand.

I now flatten my stones after every blade.

You're right to point out that it is the relative hardness of the stones that allows the use of the 400 to flatten the others. The 400 is a really, really hard stone. The Kings certainly are not. The diagonal action simply makes the process much easier by reducing 'stiction' - otherwise I find myself using too much force, with bad results.

Because I use the 400 quite often, I flatten it along with the 120 on glass plate as you describe almost every session anyway, so i don't worry that it will go out of flat (certainly not because of its flattening duties) However, I've had no luck with Mylar - these stones need too much pressure for it to survive long. I've found that using a piece of decent width, and using all of it, keeps the glass flat for a very, very long time.

Ah, the amount of time and money I wasted on wet and dry... That stuff is the worst.

So it's not that I don't use the sic on glass method, it's just that I avoid using it on the messy, muddy Kings. And since it's impossible to flatten the Sigma #120 on diamond stones anyway, and the #400 would also give them a run for their money, I'd gain nothing by using a diamond plate.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

I agree, I became especially aware of the importance of flatness after trying to sharpen the iron for my number 8 jointer on unflat stones. Because I use the Veritas honing guide for most things, lack of flatness is generally pretty obvious now - much less so freehand.

I now flatten my stones after every blade.

You're right to point out that it is the relative hardness of the stones that allows the use of the 400 to flatten the others. The 400 is a really, really hard stone. The Kings certainly are not. The diagonal action simply makes the process much easier by reducing 'stiction' - otherwise I find myself using too much force, with bad results.

Because I use the 400 quite often, I flatten it along with the 120 on glass plate as you describe almost every session anyway, so i don't worry that it will go out of flat (certainly not because of its flattening duties) However, I've had no luck with Mylar - these stones need too much pressure for it to survive long. I've found that using a piece of decent width, and using all of it, keeps the glass flat for a very, very long time.

Ah, the amount of time and money I wasted on wet and dry... That stuff is the worst.

So it's not that I don't use the sic on glass method, it's just that I avoid using it on the messy, muddy Kings. And since it's impossible to flatten the Sigma #120 on diamond stones anyway, and the #400 would also give them a run for their money, I'd gain nothing by using a diamond plate.

Glassfoil is thicker and tougher than mylar, so you could try that.

Do you have feeler gauges? After flattening the king 1000 with the 400 stone, put the king 1000 on a glass plate and use feeler gauges to see if the stone is really flat. Cigarette rolling paper is like 1thou thick, you can use
that as feeler gauge.

What steel(s) are you sharpening?

Sazman

Originally Posted by Sazman

Glassfoil is thicker and tougher than mylar, so you could try that.

Do you have feeler gauges? After flattening the king 1000 with the 400 stone, put the king 1000 on a glass plate and use feeler gauges to see if the stone is really flat. Cigarette rolling paper is like 1thou thick, you can use
that as feeler gauge.

What steel(s) are you sharpening?

Sazman

What's glass foil and where can I find it? Last night I tried using some overhead projector film with some success, but I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy that stuff anymore.

I suppose it's true that the stones might not be flat, I use a small straightedge to check occasionally by eye, but I've never bothered with feeler gauges. I usually rely upon the results to determine whether it's flat. When sharpening wide irons, it becomes immediately obvious if (say) the corners of the iron get a 6000 grit polish where the middle doesn't, or the other way around, after just a few strokes.

For instance, I was able to tell that the piece of glass I was using was out of flat by the tiniest fraction in this way.

To put it another way, if I don't notice the stones being out of flat on wide irons, and I'm getting a nice consistent polish along the entire width of my #8 iron, then the stones are flat enough.

I'm sharpening Stanley irons, a set of Narex and a set of Titan chisels.

The reason I've stopped using SiC on glass is that, especially for the softer medium and fine stones, it makes a hell of a mess. I much prefer the #400. I'm not saying it's a perfect method, and I'm not saying that it's generally a good idea to use one waterstone to flatten another (quite the opposite!).

Still, you've got me very curious now. I'll try the feeler gauges when I can find the damn things, and report back.

Cigarette papers? Really? I suppose if the stone was perfectly dry it might work.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

What's glass foil and where can I find it? Last night I tried using some overhead projector film with some success, but I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy that stuff anymore.

I suppose it's true that the stones might not be flat, I use a small straightedge to check occasionally by eye, but I've never bothered with feeler gauges. I usually rely upon the results to determine whether it's flat. When sharpening wide irons, it becomes immediately obvious if (say) the corners of the iron get a 6000 grit polish where the middle doesn't, or the other way around, after just a few strokes.

For instance, I was able to tell that the piece of glass I was using was out of flat by the tiniest fraction in this way.

To put it another way, if I don't notice the stones being out of flat on wide irons, and I'm getting a nice consistent polish along the entire width of my #8 iron, then the stones are flat enough.

I'm sharpening Stanley irons, a set of Narex and a set of Titan chisels.

The reason I've stopped using SiC on glass is that, especially for the softer medium and fine stones, it makes a hell of a mess. I much prefer the #400. I'm not saying it's a perfect method, and I'm not saying that it's generally a good idea to use one waterstone to flatten another (quite the opposite!).

Still, you've got me very curious now. I'll try the feeler gauges when I can find the damn things, and report back.

Pyramid, the Stanley irons are usually made out of not so tough
steel, so they should sharpen fine one your king stones. The Narex
is A2 steel AFAIK and the King stones don't cut A2 very well. So you
migh need an awful lot of time on the 6000 stone.

After flattening your stones, put the straightedge on the stone and
check by eye to see if there is any light coming through. You can
also use a feeler gauge. If you have feeler gauges, use them. You
are trying to figure out why you are not getting the results you are
after, so check everything. Also check if your plane iron is still square.
I had this in the beginning, I was always assuming my stones were flat
and cutting irons were square, untill I took the time to check them.

I read the review from finewoodworking on different brands of
waterstones and it showed that the king 1000 grit was OK for
A2 steel, but the polishing stones were really bad. Maximum
score was 10(1-10) and the King polishing stones scored a 5
for A2 steel performance. Basically your king polishing stones are just
not very good for A2. You would need a lot of time on the 6000 stone
to get a good result and probably flatten this stone whilst using it
1 or 2 times as the stone wears quickly. I think the only thing
you can do is to create a very tiny microbevel, maybe that way your
King polishing stone would work.

I have used King Waterstones, the 1000 and 6000. The 1000 needed
about 5-10 minutes soaking and was slowish, weak, but still somewhat
ok, the 6000 felt very nice,but so slow. My advice is to get a good 1000
grit and 8000 grit stone. With a tiny microbevel you would not need a middle
stone unless perhaps you were sharpening HSS steel.

Sazman

Speaking of king stones, does anyone know how to tell the difference between the 4000 and 6000 stones? I've got 3, I know for sure one of them is a 4000 (still in box) but not sure what the other two are. They look exactly the same.

Cheers

As far as I know the Narex aren't A2. In any case the Kings have no trouble with them, probably because the 400 does the heavy lifting. Actually, it's the Titans are much slower than the Narex. The only iron which is really slow is the O1 hock - it takes forever. In fact, the Kings struggle with it so much I've completely given up on it for now.

For now, I rather like the feel of the Kings, and that they are cheap and forgiving. I'll buy new stones once I feel I've completely mastered these, though that might be a long long time.

I'm having no better results on any of my steels, including the oddly soft modern English Stanley I've adopted as test dummy, so I think that the type of steel is probably not the issue.

I should add that my results are hardly terrible. It's only endgrain radiata that's frustrating me.

Jeez guys!

As a novice woodworker reading opinions is invaluable especially the topic of sharpening and flattening stones which does my head in on plenty of occasions.

Opinions are like assholes.....you know the saying.

So just respect everyone opinion and agree to disagree if need be. We are all woodworkers, a breed that is one in the same, there is no place for school yard antics.

I like what IanW says about sharpening and flattening stones. "I am a Behemoth when sharpening", he keeps it simple and gets the job done in the quickest, most efficiant manner.

In regards to the point of this thread if your DMT stone is cupped I would take it back to the shop you purchased it depending on how long you have had it, as surely diomand stones would be extremley hard to flatten and should come out of the factory perfect? Or invest in a 10' coarse stone and go with that. Either way I feel your pain! an extremley frustrating situation.

I hope you get it sorted!

Milo

The comment about seeing light under the straight edge alerts me to a possible problem with your flattening technique.

I never flatten stones that are dry (I wet them first), and I only flatten at the start of a session (never at the end), which is when the stones are needed. I use Shapton Pros.

Stones may move a little when they dry out (or get wet for that matter). So measuring them in one or other state can be prone to some error.

Gaps under straight edges (as seen by light) always appear larger than they really are. Further, you could not see light if the stone was wet, and you could not push a cigarette paper (what are you doing smoking!) under a straight edge if the stone was wet. So you are measuring dry ... and after flattening dry or wet?

To Stu ... I will email you later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I managed to slip a DMT Dia-Flat in among the Amazon books ordered for xmas presents without raising suspisions of swmbo . It arrived a few weeks back, and I am VERY happy.

When I first bought waterstones, I started flattening using course wet&dry on glass, then tried abrasive mesh. Messy, time consuming & did not do a good job.

The next move was a DMT coarse 200mm plate, It worked better, but had serious stiction issues on the polishing stones, and I was still dubious about how flat it was. There always seemed to be slivers of light under the straight edge.And although faster than papers, it still took some time.

The Dia-Flat is a BEAST! 3 or for swipes & all pencil lines are gone, even on my very hard stones. Absolutely NO light under the straight edge. And NO stiction issues!! Highly reccomended.