Scheppach Tiger 2500

**Big Shed** · 30th July 2010, 04:01 PM

Attended the Gouges and Skews Turn-on at 's place a couple of weeks ago and learned heaps, not only about turning but also about sharpening.

Watched Ken Wraight magically resurrect a spindle gouge on which I had achieved a rather novel "grind", this was done in very little time on a Tormek T7.

Although I own(ed) a Triton 8" Wet Grinder, I had never done very much with it mainly because I didn't have the appropriate jigs for grinding wood turning tools. I had successfully used it for wood chisels and knives etc.

So I made a decision to get some jigs and upgrade the Triton 8" (200mm) grinder to a 10" (250mm).

This is not a decision to be taken lightly as potentially there is serious money involved here, in fact one of the options available would cost more than I had spent on my new lathe, either wood or metal.

As as is my habit when buying a new piece of equipment I had a good look around on the web, in particular this forum, to see what was available and who was using what.

Also checked out various online reviews and comments on some other forums.

Basically there are 3 250mm Wet grinders on the market, in descending order of total cost:

Tormek T-7

$1050 in Oz, $US600 in the USA

Jet 708015 JSSG-10 Slow Speed Wet Sharpener

$650 in Oz, $US270 in the USA

Scheppach Tiger 2500 (also sold as the Grizzly T10010 in the US)

$350 in Oz, $US170 in the USA (Grizzly)

To the above prices one will have to add the cost of jigs for sharpening wood turning chisels, bringing the total for the Tormek to $1500, Jet about $800 and Scheppach $500, approx.

Having personally inspected, and in the case of the Tormek used, these grinders I formed the following opinions, please be aware that they are my opinions and others may not agree with them.

Tormek

Best made of the bunch, smoothest and quietest running machine. Best range of jigs and instructional material, most stockists (which does not equate to real competition).

Jet

Almost as well made as the Tormek, not quite as smooth and quiet running, good range of jigs (with far better prices), fewer stockists (most of whom have the "Jet" business model)
The Jet also has some design features that the other 2 don't have, variable speed (uses DC motor) to compensate for diminishing wheel size and adjustable torque (basically putting extra pressure on motor which drives the rubber drive wheel).

Scheppach

Not as well made as the above 2, obvious corner cutting in manufacture, limited range of jigs (but well priced), only one stockist (Hare and Forbes).

As all the jigs fit all 3 machines, I concentrated on the 3 machines themselves, as the jigs could be mixed and matched from all 3 sources if required, some even made by me (eg leather honing wheel).

I had a real problem with spending $1500 (more than I paid for my EVS lathe!) on a grinder and a few jigs. Having spent most of my life in manufacturing, cost benefit analysis is part of my approach to most things in life and the Tormek did not pass any of my cost benefit hurdles IMHO.

The Jet certainly was a more attractive proposition, particularly in the jig area, but at the end of the day the machine alone was still almost twice the price of the Scheppach.

The Scheppach, being the most attractive price (it has come down heaps in recent years), was obviously an easier choice but suffered from some design limitations:

Poorly machined shaft, running in very thin bushes

No screw adjustment on the tool support

Tool support harder to adjust as tool support and mounts not as well finished (also not stainless as on the Tormek).

Honing end of shaft only M8, not M12 so won't take Jet/Tormek leather honing wheel without an adapter.

In the end I decided that these limitations did not add up to $300, as I could easily manufacture a new stainless shaft with M12 thread on both ends, as well as turning up some decent bushes for this shaft to run in. This could be done when/if current bushes go RS.

So, the decision was made to purchase the Scheppach Tiger 2500 and after re-assuring myself by having the salesperson run the machine in the showroom. This again reinforced the fact that it wasn't as smooth as the Tormek or the Jet, but perfectly acceptable for a machine whose only job is to spin a 250mmx50mm grind stone at 90RPM.

When I unpacked the beast (18kgs) the next morning, installed the rather heavy stone and switched it on I was horrified! The thing sounded like a chaff cutter with heaps of vibration and lots of noise.

Had a good look at all the bits to see that they were installed properly (all except the stone done in the factory) and couldn't see anything wrong.

Rang the salesperson at H&F who was most concerned and told me they had never had this problem before (where have I heard this before?)

Anyway, there was nothing for it but to traipse back to Melbourne (5 hour round trip). Upon arriving at H&F, salesperson took the machine and switched it on, whereupon everyone in the glass enclosed sales office looked up and went ""?

Salesperson said "oh dear" or words to that effect and without prompting said "this is not good enough, let's get another one". I warned him that if the next one wasn't perfect that would be the end of deal and the machine would be returned.

Anyway, he got another from the warehouse, unpacked it, installed the stone and switched it on. Absolutely perfect, apart from the normal (slight) motor noise everything was fine.

**Mr Brush** · 30th July 2010, 04:13 PM

Good post

Lots of useful information for all of us confronted by the same choice.

Cheers

**Sturdee** · 30th July 2010, 04:56 PM

Fred, don't bother even looking at the wood turning jigs from Scheppach as they are rather useless. DAMHIK.

I got the Scheppach 2000 and that one worked perfectly straight out of the box and just recently bought the Tormek wood turning jigs to go with it.

The leather wheels will screw onto the wheel side but I made a small adapter from some hard plastic for the other side and that seems to work well for the time being.

BTW I found the best price for the jigs to be from Carbatec.

Peter.

**Big Shed** · 30th July 2010, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Fred, don't bother even looking at the wood turning jigs from Scheppach as they are rather useless. DAMHIK.

I got the Scheppach 2000 and that one worked perfectly straight out of the box and just recently bought the Tormek wood turning jigs to go with it.

The leather wheels will screw onto the wheel side but I made a small adapter from some hard plastic for the other side and that seems to work well for the time being.

BTW I found the best price for the jigs to be from Carbatec.

Peter.

Thanks Peter. yes I did look at the Scheppach jigs and if it wasn't for the fact that I had used the Tormek jigs at 's "do" I might have bought them, but they are not in the same league as the Tormek ones.

I did order some Jet bits and pieces, mainly to set up a Tormek BGM-100 type setup for my dry grinder and got the carving jig from them, as well as the gouge jig.

I ordered these last Sunday (from Gary Pye, no stock in Melbourne) and on Monday someone on the IAP (US) forum was selling a Jet Wet Grinder as well as the Tormek Gouge JIg and the Tormek Skew Jig. Grabbed both of those and including postage they cost well under half the local new price. Interestingly the postage on the Jet bits from Brisbane cost me more than the postage from the US.

Be interesting to compare the Jet Gouge Jig and the Tormek Gouge Jig.

I used to own the Triton wet grinder (same as Scheppach 2000) but have just sold that and bought the Scheppach Tiger 2500.

**Big Shed** · 30th July 2010, 07:56 PM

Having played with the Scheppach for a few days whilst waiting for the jigs, I can report that the wheel ran true out of the box, needing almost no dressing at all.

I sharpened all my wood chisels with the flat grinding jig and it was a delight to use the machine. Results were perfect and I found I could not slow down the Tiger 2500. Grinding action was fairly quick, wasn't able to "dress" the stone as I didn't have a dressing stone yet so can't comment on the theoretical grit, I assume 220 from the box.

Honed them on the leather wheel and I had the sharpest wood chisels I have ever owned, so first impressions are very favourable.

More to come when the Tormek jigs arrive from the US and I can do a comparison on the Jet vs Tormek gouge jig.

**rsser** · 1st August 2010, 02:19 PM

The Jet gouge jig can be made to work except for long swept back grinds but it's a bit of a fiddle and not in the same league as the Tormek in terms of build quality and repeatability.

I've used a number of S. jigs and have found they work fine.

**hitch** · 1st August 2010, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Big Shed

In the end I decided that these limitations did not add up to $300, as I could easily manufacture a new stainless shaft with M12 thread on both ends, as well as turning up some decent bushes for this shaft to run in. This could be done when/if current bushes go RS.

Fred, if like many of us, (I guess) you were not in a position to do this remanufacturing of the shaft and bearings should it become necessary, would that have led you to choose the Jet?

**rsser** · 1st August 2010, 03:31 PM

Here's some reviews of the Jet which may be of interest:

JET/Tormek Wet Sharpener Comparison - NewWoodworker.com LLC

The Folding Rule: Episode #64 - Its true, you get what you pay for!

User reports

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUzTI6ayMW4"]YouTube - JET-Tormek Side-By-Side Comparison[/ame]

**Big Shed** · 1st August 2010, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by hitch

Fred, if like many of us, (I guess) you were not in a position to do this remanufacturing of the shaft and bearings should it become necessary, would that have led you to choose the Jet?

It isn't so much that the shaft needs to be re-manufactured, it will probably give good service for a long time. It is more the bushes (they're nylon bushes rather than bearings) that I suspect will be a problem down the track. There is a stainless steel shaft and nylon bushes sold by Tormek with a quick lock setup for the stone for about $125. This would make a possible replacement for the Scheppach shaft and bushes. It is also possible that Scheppach as well as Tormek sell replacement bushes as spare parts.

Hitch, your question is a hypothetical one and not easy to answer as I didn't face that choice. But given what I looked at I think the Jet is a reasonable alternative to the Tormek at a lower cost.

I am happy with the choice I made, but time will tell.

There are people here on the forum that have bought the Scheppach Tiger 2500 and subsequently sold it and bought a Tormek. I know of at least one person that bought the used Scheppach and is happy with it. The person that replaced the Scheppach with the Tormek has said on a couple of occasions that he thought the Scheppach grind stone achieved a quicker grind IIRC.

**Big Shed** · 1st August 2010, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by rsser

The Jet gouge jig can be made to work except for long swept back grinds but it's a bit of a fiddle and not in the same league as the Tormek in terms of build quality and repeatability.

I've used a number of S. jigs and have found they work fine.

Ern, you have made the point elsewhere that the Jet jigs are iffy at best and I agree they are not as well made as the Tormek jigs, at least some of them fall in this category.

I have purchased the Jet gouge jig and it isn't as elaborate as the Tormek one, it is also a quarter of the price, so we are not really comparing apples for apples. I haven't used mine yet, but doing a "dry run" with it I can see that it can do the job. Just not as versatile as the Tormek one.

Using the Tormek gouge jig at 's do I was impressed but not impressed enough to spend $140 or so on a diecast aluminium jig. When I had the chance to buy a slightly used one for less than half the price, I took it.

Jet do not make a skew chisel jig like the Tormek so I bought the Tormek one on offer for less than half the cost as well.

The jigs one buys really shouldn't influence the choice of wet grinder as all the jigs work on all three of the machines.

One of the reviews you link to above was critical of the Jet machine primarily because the Jet jig didn't come up to his expectations, so it would perhaps have been cheaper to out and replace the Jet jig with a Tormek one, rather than replace the whole machine?

I think also we can get too focused on brand names, and perhaps the status that goes with that, rather than on outcomes.

I have bought the Jet carving chisel jig and it performs admirably on my wife's Pfeill carving chisels, at $15.00 it was money well spent.

We should also be careful of relying too much on US reviews of these machines as the price difference over there are different and therefore perceived value is also different.

**rsser** · 1st August 2010, 04:21 PM

The S 2500 that I had and liked was a German made unit. For some time they've been made in China. When S made that move Carba-tec stopped stocking the brand.

It seems that folk think T7 when they look at Tormek but the T3 is worth considering for occasional users. 8" rather than 10" wheel but a good deal cheaper at $600.

Edit: sorry Fred, we posted at the same time.

I would add that I bought 2 Jet platform 'jigs' from Amazon and both had mashed threads for the locking screw.

The Amazon customer comments and other web comments seem to indicate pretty clearly that Jet mount bar alignment problems are common, QC is variable and Jet is unresponsive.

**Big Shed** · 1st August 2010, 04:34 PM

Ern, I am not altogether sure that Scheppach manufacturing going to China and Carbatec no longer stocking it are cause and effect, I have heard other versions of the sequence of events.

Be that as it may, I would be interested in hearing your reasons for replacing the Scheppach 2500 with the Tormek T7, as you say you were happy with the Scheppach?

The other thing I would like to find out is where the "German" Scheppach 2500 is different from the "Chinese" Scheppach 2500?

I have read a few reviews of the Grizzly T10010, same as the Scheppach Tiger 2500, and made in China, and they have all been positive reviews.

I can't really give an opinion, and didn't, on the quality of the Jet machine as I have only seen it in the showroom and heard it run.

I have purchased the Jet platform jig and the support bars, and other than the fact that the support bars are spaced differently to the Tormek/Scheppach, the quality is perfectly OK. As I intend to make up my own mounts for the support bars to be used with my spark grinder the spacing difference is not an issue.

**rsser** · 1st August 2010, 04:37 PM

Oh, and yes, amazingly these 3 brands all use 12mm rod for mounting the jigs so we can happily mix and match.

And I should add that the S accessory jigs I've used were from the householder pack, not the turners/woodworkers - so knife jigs, scissor and shears etc.

**rsser** · 1st August 2010, 04:41 PM

Snap again.

Re Carba-tec dropping S. because they'd moved maunfacturing to China, I got this from the Vic Sales Manager when in a tussle over whether he'd supply a S. dusty I'd ordered and paid for.

I can't comment from experience about any differences, though you've had a sample of 2 with a 50% failure rate. You may say that it wasn't a representative sample, or a large enough one, to draw conclusions from and you'd be right. But you have to ask how the first one got through their QC.

Added: re your question as to why I swapped to a Tormek .... out of an interest to evaluate the machine. The S. I had suited me fine. Yes it ground faster than the Tormek but that'd prob be accompanied by faster wear.

**Big Shed** · 1st August 2010, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Be that as it may, I would be interested in hearing your reasons for replacing the Scheppach 2500 with the Tormek T7, as you say you were happy with the Scheppach?

I am still interested in the reasons you replaced the German Scheppach Tiger 2500 with the Tormek.

As you said above, you were happy with the Sheppach, so what did/does the Tormek offer that the German Scheppach didn't?

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