Thread: Sigh - here we go again... Sharpening Plans?

Waterstones can be flattened, granite/glass/mdf and a plasterers sanding mesh.
Just adding another variable to the mix.

Cam

I reached pretty much the same conclusions as you. But as you know this is an area where people who are normally reasonable and rational tend to leave their reason at the door and just shout their personal prejudices. So here are mine

Grinding a primary bevel is IMHO definitely the way to go.

That leaves the very tip of the bevel for honing and it is pretty easy to do freehand because the back of the bevel provides a pivot point tho start and you then just rotate the blade up until the tip touches the sharpening surface.

For honing, I use a coarse diamond stone followed by the Norton two sided oilstone. I only use the diamond stone because I have it and it really rips through any unevenness left by the wheel.

SO there isn't much for the oilstone to do - I usually only give each side of the blade a few swipes on each side of the oilstone and then I finish up.

My finishing up is a leather hone (hard leather glued to a piece of mdf) impregnated with diamond paste. That gets me a mirror finish and I then use that to keep the edge - I only go through the whole palaver when the hollow grind is almost gone. Your suggestion of Veritas rouge on mdf is just as good, again I had the diamond paste and leather to hand.

So the long and the short is I reckon your regime is as good as any, and better than many. The important thing is that you are happy with it and confident it gives you as good an edge as you can get.

Thanks guys,

Clinton - I know that waterstones can be flattened, and I know that this puts me in the class of heretic, but surely if they dish a bit over time then they start dishing immediately. Technically, everything does - but some would do so more than others.

Jeremy - it is good to know that I am not completely offtrack. Three questions though:
1. You use a diamond hone - but surely this has about the same grit as the coarse side of the stone?
2. You go straight from oilstone to diamond paste. Does this take long? What is your oilstone type? Just a normal SiC coarse/fine? It seems like a bit jump between Fine SiC and polishing paste. I was planning on adding a step on an Arkansas stone or some kind of much finer stone.

Finally, I did a bit of freehand honing tonight and got a better edge than I had got earlier with Brent Beach's style guide. I don't have the Veritas MkII, but most seem to think that it is really good?

Cheers

Cam

I grind my bevels then go straight to my finest stone. I polish the very edge, when I can see a fine line across the entire edge it is sharp. It takes about 3 minutes to remove a plane iron, sharpen it and put it back in. I use 2000 grit sandpaper glued to glass, I use it until I can see the glass through the sandpaper because silicon carbide breaks down into ever finer grits as you use it. The backs need to be polished already of course. All sharpening systems use the same process, rubbing metal on a rock to abrade it off. Oil stones can be flattened with coarse sandpaper in the same manner as waterstones. No system is better than another, just preferred by somone. Use what you have on hand, test other people's methods with them, see what works for you.
Mike

My answers in the quote. Hopefully in blue

Originally Posted by CameronPotter

Jeremy - it is good to know that I am not completely offtrack. Three questions though:
1. You use a diamond hone - but surely this has about the same grit as the coarse side of the stone?
The plate I have (from Tools from Japan) is as coarse as I have found - #150 grit and it cuts aggressively, unlike the coarse side of the oilstone
2. You go straight from oilstone to diamond paste. Does this take long?
Not really - remember that the hollow grind has left only a very narrow line of steel to work on What is your oilstone type? Just a normal SiC coarse/fine?
Yup
It seems like a bit jump between Fine SiC and polishing paste. I was planning on adding a step on an Arkansas stone or some kind of much finer stone.
Don't let me dissuade you from the extra step, but I just haven't found it necessary. As I indicated above it is the narrowness of the strip if steel we are working on that is critical to making this system work - I use a slow (hand cranked) grinder to get the hollow grind right up too the edge without bluing it. Once I developed the touch that enabled me to take off 99% of the steel with the grinders (fast 200mm white wheel then hand 150mm white wheel) I found that the rest of the process was pretty quick - 6 -10 strokes on the diamond plate, say 4 on the coarse oil, 4 on the fine and 10 on the leather/diamond hone would get me going well. The other "discoveries" were
1. freehand honing can be really accurate and the 'knack' is quickly acquired
2. not having to set up a jig/guide encourages you to sharpen
3. a 5 or 6 stroke wipe on the leather hone when you pick up the tool and when you finish with it is a habit you can quickly develop that maintains the sharpness so it is a long time between visits to the grinders (and then it is often only to the hand cranked one) to return the hollow grind to the bevel

Finally, I did a bit of freehand honing tonight and got a better edge than I had got earlier with Brent Beach's style guide. I don't have the Veritas MkII, but most seem to think that it is really good?
I have one and the only blades I use it for now are BU plane blades - these don't seem to be suitable for the hollow-grind and hone technique

This is a system I started using 4 or 5 years ago and I've not yet the round tuit I need to change. I use it on all my plane and chisel blades.

1st I use a Veritas MKII honing guide. I can hone freehand but don't see the point; it's like forgoing a plane just because you can use an adze

2nd I hone the primary bevel on a 360 grit diamond stone from Timbecon (own brand).

3rd tweak the roller on the guide and hone the micro bevel on a 1000 grit diamond stone

4th finish with a dozen strokes on a strip of leather lubricated with Brasso

This gives me razor sharp edges very quickly and for a very reasonable outlay. No flattening of stones required and the whole process takes just a couple of minutes and gives repeatable results every time. I do actually want to go down the multi grit abrasive path a la Scary Sharp; merely a lack of time and motivation are preventing me.

For my woodturning chisels and knife blades, I grind them on the 6" grinder using an adjustable rest (Timbecon again!) and then I hone them on a 10" MDF disc mounted on my lathe. Rub polishing compound on the edge and hone away; a mirror finish razor sharp blade in seconds!

Whatever method you eventually adopt, I would really recommend the Veritas guide. Easy to use, consistant results, precise, blah blah blah

Thanks again.

It appears that there are a few people out there who are jumping grits from "fine" to polish. I might give that a go and see how it turns out. I can always add more later if necessary.

I do have a few BU planes - so it looks like I might be needing a Veritas MkII though... (I also like the adze analogy ).

Cheers

Cam

Can't get near my grinder at the moment but needed to sharpe a chisel to do some work installing locks.

So I took out the Veritas Mk.II honing guide and my Medalist 4 sided diamond honing block and set to work. Thank goodness the honing block was bought on special for not much!! The ""edge" on the chise resembled the topp of a butterknife blade and I had to work hard over a period of about two hours to get anything resembling a cutting edge.

The Veritas guide is a really good tool. The one disadvantage with it is that my chisel bledes are tapered along their length sothat the knurled nuts for holding the blade have to be done up really tight, otherwise the blae can move off square.

Things will be easier when I get the Grinder back to work!!

Back in the days when there was just an old bench grinder often without toolrest and an oilstone and nothing else, life was simple. But those days are long gone and I'm afraid I don't know which way to turn either. Everyone a different system and those systems nudging $1000 doesnt seem to make sense to me; but sharpen tools we must. A couple of years ago I visited a workshop in a tourist village open day on the outskirts of Moe. The old fellas in there were happy to talk shop and I was shown a tool sharpener I had never seen before or since.

An electric motor drove a small grinding wheel at high speed but the wheel was horizontal not vertical as in a bench grinder and, the best bit, you could see through it. By that I mean the wheel was not solid but had holes or partitions cut in it so that when you held a tool to the underside (not the edge) of this wheel, you could see the actual surface being sharpened. A bit like looking through a spinning car wheel and being able to see the brake calipers within. If you applied pressure to the tool one way or the other, you could immediately see the results without removing the tool from the wheel. Anyone else know of this?

Originally Posted by dakotax3

Anyone else know of this?

Sounds like a Work Sharp or similar

Originally Posted by dakotax3

Back in the days when there was just an old bench grinder often without toolrest and an oilstone and nothing else, life was simple. But those days are long gone and I'm afraid I don't know which way to turn either. Everyone a different system and those systems nudging $1000 doesnt seem to make sense to me; but sharpen tools we must. A couple of years ago I visited a workshop in a tourist village open day on the outskirts of Moe. The old fellas in there were happy to talk shop and I was shown a tool sharpener I had never seen before or since.

An electric motor drove a small grinding wheel at high speed but the wheel was horizontal not vertical as in a bench grinder and, the best bit, you could see through it. By that I mean the wheel was not solid but had holes or partitions cut in it so that when you held a tool to the underside (not the edge) of this wheel, you could see the actual surface being sharpened. A bit like looking through a spinning car wheel and being able to see the brake calipers within. If you applied pressure to the tool one way or the other, you could immediately see the results without removing the tool from the wheel. Anyone else know of this?

sounds like a jooltool.

Cheers
Michael

Yes, I think it may have been the worksharp. I didnt use it myself, just watched an old fella put a chisel through it to show me. It was an interesting concept but I have no idea how it goes in the heat of battle. You guys were pretty quick to respond, do you use them?

If you're rehabbing 2nd hand planes and bench chisels Cameron most of your effort initially will be spent on lapping the backs to ensure they're flat. Oh, and that's true for many new plane irons and chisels too regrettably.

There are some tips on this here

I've just got some WorkSharp tempered glass discs and PSA abrasives to mount on the lathe or drill press to see if this step can be sped up.

As for flattening waterstones, another option might be the Naniwa flattening stone (comes in coarse and medium grits). I haven't tried one but it would certainly be cheaper than diamond stones and perhaps give you a flatter result than sheet abrasive stuck to plate glass.

As for ceramic stones, for 2nd stage lapping and bevel shaping I use a Bester 1000 from Welcome to toolsfromjapan.com, which has a good balance between removing steel and keeping its shape. For polishing I then go to a Shapton 4000 and Sigma 8000. It's a pity Sigma don't make a 6000. But there's a Naniwa 5000 on the market. If starting over on a budget I'd look at a 1000 and a 5/6000 from Tools from Japan.

These stones are quite thick and so will offer many years of use.

Good luck in your quest.

I've found that for really rusted/pitted blades a quick touch on the belt sander with a worn out 120 belt works a treat provided that the steel plate is flat-ish, also good for cleaning plane soles

As for stones, I find the Shaptons to cut well and stay flat for quite a while, even the super coarse ones. I have a 12,000 Shapton for final polishing because I like it, but 6000 is plenty for shaving