Thread: Which Belt Sander?

We've got two Makitas in our workshop, the 75mm and the big 'un. Both tough as nails and impossible to kill. We've also got a 1/3 sheet, ROS, and little palm sander, all Makitas, all fantastic. Although we did do a bearing on the ROS, but it was still under warranty and fixed without a problem.

The only thing to watch for is that with the big belt sander you really need to hang on to it, or it will take you for a ride around the workshop...

Originally Posted by martrix

That Bosch is the model is what I used to use at home.It died in the ????? twice after being repaired and the belt drive broke twice whilst the nut that holds the drive wheel on was always releasing. Also felt terribly unbalanced when compared to the Makita (even worse when sanding a 19mm door on edge). 75mm wide belt ain't much chop either, 100mm belts are more common (cheaper) and is much more useful (and faster).

Anyway, not having a dig at you Lig or Groggy, just my experience and opinion.....

I also had this model Bosch. It was great while it went, but didn't last very long, about 5yrs old and it ???? itself. It didn't have much use in that time.

As I was left with a heap of 533 x 75mm belts I replaced it with a Black & Decker Dragster, as this was the only one that took the same size belts that I could get locally and in a reasonable time. It does the job OK.

Ashwood

I have a Makita 9924db and can vouch for its ability, bit noisy but always wear earmuffs. I also have a RYOBI ebs 81321K belt sander which was bought because the Makita was too heavy for doing vertical work. The Ryobi is a great lighter sander which has a lot of capability. Both very good tools.

regards Mike

Makita gets my vote but watch the aluminium cover If + when using 100mm belts as it gets sanded away.
The bearings might fill w dust but mines been going for 6 yrs.
The big Hitachi can be quite cheap on ebay?

Hi all.

Thanks for the feedback.

Regarding the brand generally, I have confidence in Makita (have a circular saw & drill - great build), Bosch (have had a jigsaw for 20 years now & still going strong), Hitachi (have a drill D13VF - well made and powerful but a bit loud - highly recommend if you want a basic corded high torque drill which can twist your arm off!) and DeWalt (tried but never owned).

My question is more on which particular belt sander. Makita is obviously well regarded, well made & tough as nails with a simple design, but I wont rule out the Bosch at this point, as it has a totally different design approach which could possibly suit my needs better??. I'll probably go down to the shops to see for myself, have a go at the feel, weight, etc. before I decide.

But appreciate the feedback, whichever I get.

I was wrong. The Festool belt sander at work was the 75mm unit. I left it in the box....and picked up the Makita.

Hi Ashwoods and others,

for myself, i know the large Makita and Holz Her sanders from experience. My favorites are the Makita's, because they contain more metal and are of a simpler and more reliable design.

Belt sanders are very noisy by principle. Since with this application the motor is under heavy load during longer periods of time, its cooling fan is built large to make sure that enough air is drawn through even at much reduced rpm. There is a second centrifugal fan attached to extract the dust and blow it in the bag, therefore the machines starts off with much more ventilation noise than most other machines. There is a double rpm reduction from motor to belt drive roll, the first reduction is often a toothed belt and the second a set of gears. Both these systems are noisy too.

The Holz Her sanders by the Karl M. Reich woodworking machine factory from Nürtingen near Stuttgart (from which the Bosch sanders were derived), have a longitudinal motor layout, like the Porter Cable and vintage Wolf sanders from England have. This design has a set of angled gears as a first reduction. The Holz Her machines have a toothed belt as a second reduction, which directly drives the rubber belt roll at the rear. This belt is more bulky than a primary rpm reduction belt, since it has to transfer more pull because of the lower rpm. Porter Cable and Wolf used to have a chain in an oil bath for a secondary rpm reduction instead.

Holz Her used to work close together with Bosch. Many Bosch woodworking tools (planers, circular saws, belt sanders) were made by Reich and Bosch/Scintilla made several types of drills, drivers, jig saws and orbital sanders for Reich and its Holz Her brand. The Bosch GBS 75 is also derived from a Holz Her belt sander design and once started off as the PBS 75, meant for the green Bosch DIY-line. The last Holz Her belt models were the 2410 (1000 Watts, 75 mm) and 2420 (1200 Watts, 100 mm). The Holz Her brand was bought by Festo in 1999, mostly to get rid of Holz Her as an arch rival in the plunge circular saw niche. Several existing Holz Her designs were left just as they were and carried on in black and green, with a Festool label stuck on, like the 2410 and 2420 belt sanders. The 2410 is also license built for Metabo and was in the past also made for Atlas-Copco/AEG/Milwaukee.

Where most manufacturers shy away of packing gears in plastic gear casings, for reasons of poor heat transfer and absorption, Reich didn't seem to mind so much. There are many Reich designs (especially of heavy duty circular saws) which lack metal gear casings. Reich's secret to counter this, is the near perfect finish of the gear's teeth. The gears are chosen slightly larger than average and the teeth mesh beautifully, resulting in the generation of less heat. In spite of that, i've seen gears inside heavily used 2420 sanders turned into every colour conceivable, these must have run very hot indeed.

Therefore i favour the Makitas. I have both a 2420 and 2410, but also two 9402 models (the larger version of the 9924). I keep reaching for the Makitas, they run smoother and cooler, are more manageable, have a more robust and rigid feel to them. The rear roll gears are packed in a metal casing that can be taken apart for cleaning and lubrication. The primary reduction belt is cooled in the motor's airflow, is packed behind a removable metal lid and can quickly be cleaned with compressed air. Should the dust suction fan be clogged, dissassembly is less that a pain then it is on a 2420. The Makita has a good belt adjustment system, that stays tuned and true for a long time. The machine has a good balance and a better point of gravity than the more plasticcy HolzHer/Bosch, its own weight suffices, you only have to hold it back from rolling away.

So, like most other members stated or know from experience, the Makita would be better value.

Lots of success and kind regards,

Gerhard Schreurs
Netherlands

Hi Gerhard,

That is indeed a magnificent write-up! You certainly know your history and details.

I certainly agree that the Makita 9924 has a very basic simple design, which is often (and has proven to be in this case) a good thing. You have swayed my decision quite convincingly.

Purely for curiosity sake, would you happen to know some background behind the Hitachi & DeWalt belt sanders?

Cheers
Ashwood

Definatley Makita.

One word of advice though, Don't lend it to your dad. I did and he didn't realise that when you put to much presure on it the belt tracks back towards the housing. And yes he cut a nice cut into the housing with the side of the belt.
Guess he just calls it payback from all the times i wrecked his tools as a kid.

Makita rules.

JAMC

Hi Ashwood,

thanks for the compliment!

DeWalt is, as you'll probably already know, owned by Black & Decker. The most reliable sources say that B&D purchased the brand in 1960. DeWalt started with a timber workshop, making and selling parts for timber fences. His was the idea that it is more efficient to pull a circular sawblade through a plank instead of moving the plank along the sawblade. He mounted an induction motor with a direct drive blade on rails, called it the "Wonder Worker" and there was his patent of the sliding arm cut-off saw. On DeWalt's own website is a more elaborate company history, so i needn't go deeper into that. But anyway, DeWalt never made any electric hand tools, only stationary ones. How B&D came to be responsible for the production of DeWalt tools, is a story that goes through Elu Germany.

In Europe, the professional tools of B&D were not taken all too seriously by craftsmen over here and a large part of that could be blamed on B&D's own marketing. Whereas B&D is known for vast amounts of DIY-stuff with a poor price-quality ratio, it also makes some awefully good professional machines, but alas most of those are meant for its US home market. In the 50s and 60s the brand designed some very good drills, angle grinders, saws and belt sanders. Heavy all-metal contructions, mostly from polished aluminium, similar to the durable vintage product line of Porter-Cable. B&D had some factories set up in Europe in the 60s to adapt to and cater for the European markets. There were Spennymoor in England, Idstein in Germany, Monza in Italy (and a second Italian one, i forgot the name). The EU pro-line machines were derivatives from the US designs, adapted to European safety board and electric normalisation and worker's union standards. But there was a mix of older and newer generation designs, made in several colour schemes, which was confusing. Craftsmen were used to recognisable machine types, to tried and trusted familiar models, with not too many alterations all at once. Metabo, HolzHer, Elu, Bosch, etc., all stuck to recognisable product lines and stylings, but B&D even tinkered with crossover models between purely professional, semi professional and budget common duty stuff. There were confusing product line names like "Pro-Line"or "Pro Power Plus" or just "Professional". These machines were cranked out in silver, in gray, in orange, in blue, in mustard yellow, in black and in hammerite finishes. Craftsmen were confused enough to just leave B&D tools alone on the shop shelves.

B&D needed a reputable pedigree tool brand name to mend its falling market share and in 1984, the Elu brand was up for grabs. Eugen Lutz made electric motors and machines from 1924 on, in his Black Forest based factory in Mühlacker-Lomersheim. Elu was well known for its table saws, routers, planers, handheld saws and stationary machines. Most were designed and made in the Lomersheimer factory, but some three-phase machines were made by Scheer and some smaller handheld machines by Perles from Switzerland. In Europe, 1984 was a hard time economically, but it was the heyday of sophisticated tool designs. People who collect tools know that there were never so much new electronic functions and accessories and lushly furnished tool kits available than there were in the 80's. That's when (for instance) electronic tacho control was introduced; there were even drills with a keyboard and display on top to literally program speed settings with. Markets were flooded with machine types and new product lines, there was too much choice, too many competing brands. Eugen Lutz chucked it in and carried on with stationary machines for the manufacturing of window frames (see the Elumatec website).

B&D bought the Elu brand and all its design drawings, its production machines and its parts and materials inventory and shipped the lot to Delemont in Switzerland, where a new B&D owned Elu-factory was set up. So if you encounter an Elu machine "Made in Switzerland", that means it was produced between 1984 and 1992, under B&D responsibility. Later on, the Elu products were made in the B&D factories in Germany, Italy and England or under B&D licence by Grosuplje Manufacturing & Marketing in Slovenia (see www.g-mm.si). B&D made the same mistake twice, by daring to introduce dubious B&D designs in the professional Elu-line, like the Alligator saw or the BD 575 reciprocal cut-saw. Craftsmen started to get alienated from the Elu brand, like they once learned to leave the B&D products on the shelves, so B&D was more or less forced to kill off the dying Elu brand in 1999. It needed yet another reputable unspoilt professional brand name to sustain its market share, so B&D turned to the DeWalt brand it already possessed. Some clever marketing was set up, like the colour scheme derived from heavy building machines, which mostly seem to be bright yellow with contrasting black, the world over. Even when dirty, this livery looks nice. A rookie engineer wearing crisp new yellow mud boots is laughed off the construction site, but dirty boots and a dirty helmet and some weathered clothes rather show that he's been around the block a few times. The same goes for the DeWalt machines. They look great in the shop and stand out form other brands when new and bright, but when dirty they suggest that they've done some serious heavy work. So the soiling of the yellow was even part of the plan.

And it worked. At first, B&D almost made the mistake for a third time to leave many old designs in the DeWalt product line. Craftsmen again became wary, for this is just an optical trick to save R&D costs and to render old stuff in bright yellow plastic, which costs the same as any other colour. But for several years now, only the best vintage Elu and B&D degins were chosen to stay and many other machines were designed from scratch. These are of fine quality, as several other members already stated here. I know the present circular saws and heavy routers and jig saws from DeWalt from experience as very good products, but i don't know their latest belt sanders and haven't tried them yet. They look like they came out of a SciFi design department and have some toylike shapes and details and here in Holland i know of no 100 mm model, only a 75 mm one. I guess you would have to search for test reports on these machines and ask other members, i'm of little help here.

As Hitachi is concerned, their machines and designs are even simpler than those of Makita. Hitachi is a giant firm, like Mitsubishi or Kawasaki or Matsushita (Panasonic) are. They are a great name in very fast and large memory chips and other electronics, in building machines, heavy electrical machines like locomotives and household appliances. Like most such giants, the brand is really an umbrella under which many daughter firms are gathered. Such a daughter is Hitachi-Koki, and she makes the electric tools in factories in Japan, Malaysia and Ireland. Hitachi once started with the repair and manufacturing of electric motors, like Makita did. The company reveals its company history on its websites. The brand is a true copy cat, it looks closely at every manner and style of machine building that all world factories have to offer. From those insights it choses the cheapest and simplest ways of making its own designs. Therefore, since the 60s there have been vast arrays of good Hitachi tools, but with a conspicuous lack of design of their own . Hitachi tool looks were for a long time boring and not very comprehensive as a styled-through product line. There were only the green and silver colour and the brand name, Hitachi didn't bother beyond that. But it obviously took the growing criticism on that account so seriously, that recently Hitachi's design lab has gone completely over the top and cranked out some merchandise that seems to accompany future Predator movie sequel releases.
For my money, stick to the old green and silver polycarbonate machines, not the black and green nylon soft grip liveries. The largest 100 mm belt sander (not the SB75 in a 100 mm version, but the really bulky machine, i believe it's called SB 110) easily matches the Makita 9402. The SB75 would problaby match the 9924. Makita and Hitachi meant to set up these competing types as fierce rivals in the same market niches, so that shouldn't be a coincidence. I've seen many Hitachi machines from the inside, and i often wondered where the money went, because the rather hefty price of Hitachi tools can't be justified by the choices and gauges of the materials used. Where (for instance) many levers on Elu machines were nice cast aluminium, levers and adjustments on Hitachi tools are stamped and bent steel parts, with a mere brass or black phosphate finish, virtually the cheapest way to make such parts. Cooling fans, wires, switches, gears, bearings, bushes, housing parts, base plates and guides are chosen to be made in the simplest ways and most efficient/economic sizes. But they were chosen just right. When used properly, these simple machines seldomly break down and keep on going. Because there is so little to break and because Hitachi had its metallurgy and engineering knowledge in order. Their tools are just like Jeeps or Landrovers, nothing fancy but just right for the job and fully up to it.

Hope i were some help on this account.

greetings from Holland!

gerhard

hi All,

after the two long stories i bored you with, i looked up some pics to illustrate what i was on about, just to make it a bit more digestible.

Greetings!

gerhard

I hope people remember to rate this thread, I think it is headed for the best of the best. Thank you for some great historical background Gerhard!

Hi gerhard

You must have writer cramp or RSI after all that typing.
Well done Very informative.
Thats why we have forums, so we can all learn.
JAMC

I spent about 3 hours today hanging onto our big Makita with 40 grit loaded. I can't move my arms anymore...