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Thread: Bow saw blades
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6th May 2021, 08:05 PM #16
Making a couple of blades
Orright, as promised, here is a step through of making a coupla blades.
First up, I checked the meat-saw blade to make sure I remembered it correctly, and it is 10 tpi, & 19mm wide. The holes are about 297mm apart, so it's a little shorter than the Grammercy blades, but depending on your centre-beam joints, it would probably fit ok. It's also 0.030" thick, which I think is a bit much, easy enough to tension in the steel frame it's intended for, but you'll have to wind your bowsaw up hard to do it. 1 Meat saw blade.jpg
But while a 19mm wide blade is going to be ok for straight cuts or very wide curves. I think you need something a bit narrower for the job in hand. So I dug out a bandsaw blade that I have been saving for this sort of job.
2 Doner blade.jpg
It's a 1/2 inch "Woodpecker", 0.025" thick, 4 tpi, with impulse-hardened fangs.
I examined the teeth carefully & noted that the blueing from the hardening process extends about 3/4 of the way down each tooth, so I set it up between a couple of strips of 1/8" steel, with the bottoms of the gullets aligned along one edge: 3 Ready to remove teeth.jpg
Then zzzst, whacked off the hard bits with a 1mm cutoff wheel in the angle grinder (about 3 seconds): 4 Teeth removed.jpg
I smoothed & straightened the cut with a file (confirming that I had, indeed removed the hardened steel), and the end result was a blade blank about 9mm wide. I then drilled the pin holes. You could use an ordinary HSS twist drill, which will make the two holes (& wreck itself in the process), but my choice is a fine carbide glass-drilling bit. Takes a bit of care, drilling lightly from each side, but I got the holes close enough for a firm fit for a 1.6mm nail on two, & a loose fit on the other 2: 5 Holes drilled.jpg
Then I set set it in my saw vise with the appropriate template (paper templates are available here, & do the job, too, the metal template is just quicker), & marked out the teeth. 6 Marking teeth.jpg
I then removed the template, set the file in a guide stick to get me the 5 degrees of negative rake I wanted 7 File guide.jpg and filed in the teeth.
If you need any proof that the steel is tough, the complete destruction of the corner of this file after cutting in a set of teeth should be proof enough. This corner is quite extinct after filing in a set of 12 tpi teeth (about 5 strokes per tooth)! 8 Worn file.jpg
Next job was to set the teeth. As I said above, somewhere, it pays to put a bit more set on these teeth than you would on a tenon saw of the same pitch, because it gives you more steerage-way. With the teeth set, the blade goes back into the vise for the sharpening pass (just one light stroke using a fresh corner of the file was all that was required) and it's done. I made two blades, one 12 & the other 10 tpi, took about 30 minutes each, including faffing about taking pics: 9 Done.jpg
I used two similar blades in my own 12 inch saw to compare their performance on a piece of wood of the size you'd be cutting cabriole legs from. These are two cuts (30 strokes for each blade) in 85mm deep Camphor wood made with the 10tpi blade (left) & the 12tpi blade (right). I expected the 10tpi blade to cut a little quicker, & it did - a bit more than I expected, actually, but I think if I repeated both cuts a few times, the average difference would probably be about 1/2 to 2/3rds the difference in this pic: 10 Test cuts.jpg
As you can see, the blades are able to cut a reasonable radius, enough to manage your average cabriole leg, at any rate.
So Adam, PM me an adress & they will be on their way to you as soon as I can get to the P.O.....
Cheers,IW
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6th May 2021, 10:50 PM #17SENIOR MEMBER
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7th May 2021, 06:37 AM #18
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7th May 2021, 08:46 AM #19
Ah, the old saw-file business! I actually used two files for the entire job, I marked-out with a worn file, because it's those first couple of strokes that put the worst strain on the corners so I killed that one first. It just happened to be a 4 1/2 inch extra-slim (an old-stock, made in Aus. Wiltshire). Then I cut them in the rest of the way with a 5 inch double-extra-slim Bahco (available here). I get these by the box (10 per box) because I use this size a lot, they are good for most medium-sized backsaws (tpi 10-14). For 15tpi & finer, I use Grobet needle files (160mm 4-cut), which are becoming poisonously expensive, but they last 3-4 times longer than other brands, so are actually more economical.
What brand of file you buy makes little difference nowadays, as far as I'm concerned, none of them is up to the standards of 40 years ago, except the Grobets, which are still made in Switzerland. All of the major brands are made somewhere other than the implied country of origin, & quality-control varies accordingly - you get variation from batch to batch. The sub-contractors just haven't quite mastered that sweet temper that gives hardness without being too brittle. I've read that Nicholsons made in Mexico are getting there, but haven't found any reliable local source of those. Pferd are on a par with Bahco, but a pita to get hold of (only available through certain outlets, which don't hold stock, so I have to wait while they order them in). I've been getting my files from the place linked to above for the last few years, they have a good range & their prices are reasonable.
You'll get a reasonable run out of a file if you are only using it for sharpening, they don't crack up nearly so quickly when the force is being spread over a larger proportion of the surface area of the teeth. You could get a dozen or more re-sharpens out of one file on something like these bowsaw blades if you do a light touch-up as soon as the saw starts feeling a bit sluggish. That'll last the average weekend warrior a long time....
Cheers,IW
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7th May 2021, 11:06 AM #20
Last night I rang my mate and asked about progress on his bow saw blades. He said that he hadn't done anything since Christmas as he was disappointed.
Turns out that he had to wait for the butcher to break a blade, then he got "about 3 m" of ½" x 4 tpi blade, which cut well but was too course for his needs. He said that he thought that a Tage Frid type saw with a 1" x 4 tpi would be good for straight cuts, but that a ½" blade should have around 10-12 tpi for doing curve work. He said that the ½" blade cut fast but "wavy". He's been looking for a finer blade since Christmas! [Remember, this is a guy who has never used a bow saw before, except for a steel bush saw - Bahco?]
I then sent him a copy of your Post No 16 above, Ian, on de-fanging and re-fanging a band saw blade and this morning I got a three word reply:
"Not f***ing likely", except he did not use asterixes.
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7th May 2021, 01:39 PM #21
Ah well, pearls before swine, as they say....
I accept that toothing saw blades isn't everyone's cup of tea - there are things we know we won't like without having to experience them (like jumping off a cliff, for e.g. ). Having done well over a hundred of them, it's become a pretty routine procedure for me, but I do remember when I was intimidated by the thought of filing in a set of teeth. I may be still thinking about it & still intimidated by the thought if RayG hadn't been so encouraging & convinced me that a mere mortal can make a saw from scratch, & even a decent one, with a bit of care & guidance. So now I know it's well within the ability of an average bloke, I try to pass on a bit of confidence to anyone who is hesitant about giving it a go.
"Wavy" cuts are certainly a common occurrence when you start using these things, the 'balance' is very different from a typical backsaw. Getting the right amount of tension on the blade is important. I would suggest it is not so much the tpi that affects straight cutting but the width of the blade & the amount of set. I use my bowsaws almost exclusively for turning cuts, so I use blades no wider than 9mm & with lots of set - such blades don't naturally want to follow a dead-straight line. The blade that resides semi-permanently on my most used 10" saw is about 4mm wide or a touch less, because it gets used where tight turns are required, such as whacking out dovetail waste. I would not enter a straight-line cutting competition with that blade! If I were using my bowsaw for straight cutting like dovetails, etc, a la Tage Frid, I'd fit it with a blade about 20-25mm wide with a set like on my dovetailer backsaw. From memory, in the pics you see of him churning out D/Ts (with a saw that looks like something you'd use for cutting firewood!), the blades are about an inch wide. One of his students reckoned he could split a knife line with it, whilst looking at the observers & talking at the same time!
Cheers,IW
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10th May 2021, 03:50 PM #22SENIOR MEMBER
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10th May 2021, 06:07 PM #23
Adam
Not quite: It is a smaller can.
The only modern one I am really aware of is the Somax, which is a replica of the Eclipse brand. It is fine. There are quite a lot of vintage saw sets floating around. Eclipse and Stanley are the most common, but there are a range of models particularly in the Stanley line up.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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10th May 2021, 06:35 PM #24
If you keep your eyes peeled, the old Eclipses turn up very regularly at flea markets for sensible prices ($10-25). Just make sure the bits are all there (people have a habit of unscrewing the 'anvil' part & losing them, which makes the tool rather useless). They can often feel a bit stiff, but are easy to pull apart, and a clean & oiling usually has them operating like new. You really need two, one "regular" for handsaws (10tpi & down) and one for finer teeth. Somax sell one which has a finer plunger (the "blue model"), but it's dead easy to take a plunger & file the end to a more narrow bevel, the metal is quite soft & easily filed....
Cheers,IW
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11th May 2021, 08:01 AM #25GOLD MEMBER
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Hi all. I recently bought 2 sawsets from eBay for the grand total of $7.50 (plus postage). One was listed as a vintage Eclipse 77 and turned out to be plastic (?!@#$/%). The other was listed as a vintage Apex and turned out to be very nice. It's actually a Merrill Apex Special and has very early patent dates on it. It has a lockable "bolt" that seems to act as an orientation guide. I set it to allow the set to just slip over the blade. Interestingly after use I noticed that a little rub mark was left below each tooth. Maybe the anvil tip needs cleaning up. Not sure what to do with the Eclipse but very happy with the Merrill.
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11th May 2021, 09:09 AM #26
A plastic saw-set??!!
Has Eclipse degenerated so far? At some time (in the 60's??), they switched from brass to aluminium alloy for the body castings which was debatably a retrograde step, but surely they haven't sunk so low!? Tell me it's a ring-in!!
I've got a couple of old Eclipse 77s from my old-pot's tool collection, both brass-bodied. One is pre-WW2 and the other was bought in the early to mid 50s and was still in it's original box, marked '21/6', which translates to $2.07 in decimal currency - which seems a trifle, but it was close to a day's wages for a labourer back then. I discovered why it was still in its box & looked unused, it didn't work! The casting had not been cleaned up properly in the 'mouth' area and a thick band of flashing prevented the tooth being bent from sitting up high enough for the plunger to hit the top 1/3rd of the tooth. The plunger barely touched the extreme top of the tooth at the finer settings, causing some distortion of the tip but negligible 'set'. A bit of very careful filing (which confirmed it is indeed brass) soon fixed that & it's now a very useful member of my saw-set family.
MA, my other, older Eclipse also leaves small scuff marks on a shiny new blade where the gripping plunger contacts it. I've tried lightly sanding the face & it improved a bit but still marks the blade. Some rainy afternoon I'll sit down & do a thorough examination of it & see if I can eliminate the marking. It doesn't have any effect on function, of course, it's just unsightly & annoying....
Cheers,IW
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11th May 2021, 02:44 PM #27
Adam
The vintage Eclipse in brass is much more appealing if you can find them. If the aluminium set I have is anything to go by, they anodised them so they looked sort of brassy. So if buying online for a brass version, watch out as they could be mistaken. The aluminium bodies are less robust and liable to breakage. Definitely avoid a plastic one!!
Mountain Ash started a thread on saw sets a while back and page two in particular might assist you with what is out there and what might suit you.
Stanley #42 saw set - Page 2 (woodworkforums.com)
Bear in mind that, as with so many things, there is this thing called personal preference. There is also availability, budget and SWMBO.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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11th May 2021, 09:11 PM #28SENIOR MEMBER
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11th May 2021, 10:58 PM #29
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12th May 2021, 07:51 AM #30GOLD MEMBER
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