Thread: Which frog angle?

Originally Posted by groeneaj

I'm looking at getting a Lie Nielsen #4 1/2 smoother. LN sell higher angle frogs (50 and 55 degrees) and was wondering what angle you would suggest. Some of the woods I'm looking to work with is huon pine, US cherry and jarrah.

I was thinking of getting a 50 degree frog with the plane, and an additional 55 degree for when the 50 degree creates tearout. And when/if the 4 1/2 is defeated, I'll turn to the bevel up smoother with a 62 degree cutting angle or HNT smoother.

Suggestions?

Andy

if ur cashed up then by all means get a higher angle frog. Another way to go is to put a backbevel on ur iron. Putting on a backbevel increases the effective cutting angle of the plane. Although i'd think a high angle frog is more effective.

Originally Posted by groeneaj

I'm looking at getting a Lie Nielsen #4 1/2 smoother. LN sell higher angle frogs (50 and 55 degrees) and was wondering what angle you would suggest. Some of the woods I'm looking to work with is huon pine, US cherry and jarrah.

I was thinking of getting a 50 degree frog with the plane, and an additional 55 degree for when the 50 degree creates tearout. And when/if the 4 1/2 is defeated, I'll turn to the bevel up smoother with a 62 degree cutting angle or HNT smoother.

Hi Andy

Derek recently obtained a 55° frog for his Anniversary #4-1/2 (which as made had the 50° frog).
His recent comment was

Originally Posted by derekcohen

[the 50 degree frog] limited [the #4-1/2's] use on interlocked grain as the cutting angle was not high enough. Recently I acquired a 55 degree frog - not used it much as yet, but it looks very promising.

I put a high value on Derek's judgement and opinions

Get the 55° frog
If down the track you find it's over the top most of the time, get a separate 45° frog

Yeah I was always going get the 55 degrees as an extra, I suppose my question should be whether to get the plane with a 45 or 50 degree frog? I know Derek has said in the past there is not much difference?

Rather than getting several different frogs for one LN plane, may I suggest that you get a couple of planes set up with different arrangements so you do not have all that futzing around that comes from forever swapping, mixing, matching and fine tuning the bits and the set-up of your plane to achieve the result you seek?

I have, and suggest that you consider, a set of planes that includes:
4 or 4 1/2 with 45 degree frog, no front bevel (LN, LV, WR or well-fettled one from any of the reputable makers - they all work very well)
HNT Gordon A55 Smoother, which effectively has a 55 degree frog, no front bevel
HNT Gordon Smoother (original design), which effectively has a 60 degree frog. This also has no front bevel.

The HNT Gordons are my favourites! They are exceptionally versatile and are renowned for their ability to produce fine finishes on difficult Australian timbers with zero or minimal tearout. Changing the blade orientation in HNT Gordons is also very easy, and these planes then become excellent high angle scrapers.

Others in this Forum will suggest that you consider using a bevel up smoother with a choice of several blades sharpened at different bevel angles so as to enable a high bevel angle to be used with cranky Australian timbers. This is also an excellent option.

Cheerio

Thanks for the reply, your idea makes sense. I suppose my thinking is that I've always wanted a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 and I want to use it on as many different types of wood that I use. And for anything that a 55 degree frog can't handle I'd go for a bevel up smoother.

Is 45 ok for most Aussie hardwoods, or maybe go the 50 instead?

Ofcourse these planes won't work unless I can sharpen them! I've been practicing and practicing and I'm confident I can get a very sharp blade now.

Andy

Originally Posted by groeneaj

Is 45 ok for most Aussie hardwoods, or maybe go the 50 instead?

Given the choice, I would go with the 45 degree frog, as this would allow me to put a small front bevel on a blade if I wanted to increase the cutting angle a bit, e.g. to 50 degrees. With a 50 degree frog, the lowest cutting angle you can get is 50 degrees - you cannot go lower unless you can put a hollow on the front of the blade.

Well done on becoming proficient at sharpening plane blades! With this skill you might have another option, i.e., to have several blades with small front bevels for your one plane. Then, assuming that you have a 45 degree frog, you can easily get:

no front bevel - 45 degree cutting angle
5 degree front bevel - 50 degree cutting angle
10 degree front bevel - 55 degree cutting angle
etc.

If you have only one blade, you could put a front bevel on it, try it a bit, and if not OK, make a small change / increase to the front bevel and try again until you are happy with the result.

This approach would enable you to sort out the best cutting angles for the actual timbers you are going to use (I find it difficult to generalise) at a lower cost and perhaps a trifle easier than purchasing and swapping fixed angle frogs. For example, if you find that a cutting angle of 45 degrees is fine for you, then all you have to do is remove the front bevels on the extra blades as you sharpen them in the usual way and, hey presto, you have a couple of spare blades so you can always have a super sharp one ready for use. If you find that a higher cutting angle works better for you most of the time, you then have the choice of continuing to use a blade with a small front bevel that gives you the cutting angle you want, or purchasing an additional frog if you can get one with the necessary angle, or tuning your BU smoother to produce the goods.

I use my 45 degree smoother on pine, cedar, some "Tasmanian Oak" (Mountain Ash?) and similar timbers. As soon as I see the slightest bit of tear out I instinctively reach for my HNT Gordon A55 Smoother, which has a 55 degree cutting angle ( or use a HNT Gordon original design - 60 degree cutting angle). This invariably solves the problem for me.

I hope this helps. By the way, I have no association with Terry Gordon - I bought all my planes from him at woodwork shows or similar, anonymously, and I paid full price - cash.

Cheerio.

Hi Andy

The answer lies in what you want to use the LN #4 1/2 for.

In my mind, the LN is a finish smoother, that is, is gets set up to take very fine shavings, and that it should be the last plane that touches the wood. In this case, the very last thing you want is the plane/blade to create any tearout.

If you lived in the USA, or anywhere outside Australia for that matter, I would say get a 50 degree frog. There is not much difference in performance between a 45- and 50 degree frog, but the 50 is a little better (understandably). Working with Australian hardwood changes the rules. Our woods typically have interlocked grain, although some are quite workable with 45 (common pitch).

My recommendation would be the 55 degree frog, which would maximise the potential of this plane to produce a finished surface on our local timbers.

I would keep a tuned Bailey or Bed Rock, with its 45 degree frog, for the softer woods with straight grain. Add in a good aftermarket blade, and it would be a very good user ... but not generally good enough for the harder timbers.

Of course you could use the LN in place of a Stanley, with a 45 degree frog, but I think that would be a waste of a good plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek