Thread: Help me with my handtool shopping list!

How much of a difference, realistically, is there between an OK quality tool (e.g. Spear and Jackson Tenon Saw, approx $70) vs a top notch one (e.g. Adria Crosscut Tenon Saw, $237).

That's a huge difference in price.

Derek, apricotripper, thoughts?

Originally Posted by jisk

How much of a difference, realistically, is there between an OK quality tool (e.g. Spear and Jackson Tenon Saw, approx $70) vs a top notch one (e.g. Adria Crosscut Tenon Saw, $237).

That's a huge difference in price.

Derek, apricotripper, thoughts?

My 2 cents:

The reason that there is a market for Adria (and Lie Neilsen HNT Gordon and the rest) is that the quality of leading brands of earlier times (like Spear and Jackson) has gone off as accountants took over the brands and "modernised" the product.

IMHO an old Disston, S&J or Tyzack saw is likely to be as good in terms of its steel and tote as a modern top of the range hand saw. All you need to do is to learn how to joint, set and sharpen an old saw and it will be as good a saw as you can get.

So if you want to buy new - there is a real quality difference between a new S&J or Bahco/Sandvik saw and an Adria or a LN - and you will have to pay for that difference. But don't forget that you can get as good a saw for much less by recycling pre WWII tools.

Thanks for the insight Jeremy.

Personally, I'd rather buy new (or already restored) as I have little experience with good tools, or with restoring tools. By not having the experience with good tools, I don't think I'd have the idea in my head on how the tool should perform, and thus, the performance to restore it to, or how to tweak it. The other, and probably more important reason, is that I have little enough time to do woodwork as it is, and would rather not spend most of that in restoring the tools. I'm sure plenty of others on this forum are in the same boat.

I was also about to say that finding pre-WWII tools for a decent price is hard, but then I did a quick search on ebay and found half a dozen Disston saws (more than when I last checked), all at an OK price. Any idea where to get already restored vintage tools (reference to Jim Davey in an earlier post noted)?

I own a modern S&J brass backed tenon saw. What difference would I notice between the performance of this and an Adria or restored vintage saw? $230 odd bucks is a lot of money to pay just to find out.

Generally, I'm a believer in buying good stuff, but not buying it overpriced. That's why I drive a Ford, and not a Kia or a BMW.

Originally Posted by jisk

Thanks for the insight Jeremy.

Personally, I'd rather buy new (or already restored) as I have little experience with good tools, or with restoring tools. By not having the experience with good tools, I don't think I'd have the idea in my head on how the tool should perform, and thus, the performance to restore it to, or how to tweak it. The other, and probably more important reason, is that I have little enough time to do woodwork as it is, and would rather not spend most of that in restoring the tools. I'm sure plenty of others on this forum are in the same boat.

I was also about to say that finding pre-WWII tools for a decent price is hard, but then I did a quick search on ebay and found half a dozen Disston saws (more than when I last checked), all at an OK price. Any idea where to get already restored vintage tools (reference to Jim Davey in an earlier post noted)?

I own a modern S&J brass backed tenon saw. What difference would I notice between the performance of this and an Adria or restored vintage saw? $230 odd bucks is a lot of money to pay just to find out.

Generally, I'm a believer in buying good stuff, but not buying it overpriced. That's why I drive a Ford, and not a Kia or a BMW.

My dad gave me a valuable lesson on this about 35 years ago - he said that if it works easily it is right but if you have to work the tool hard to make it work, it was time to sharpen it.

Tools are just that, tools. Their job is to let you make things that you want to make and to do that properly they need to be easy to use. If your Ford is the car that satisfies your driving needs, no need to look at BMW.

If you find your S&J easy to use to make the cuts you want to make, then there is no need to get another tennon saw and you will just be wasting money (unless you want to become a collector). So ask yourself whether the saw is doing its job and if not what do you think would make a better saw (or to put it another way, what don't you like about your saw - is it the saw or is it the way you use it?)

But if your saw is hard to use, then you may find that another saw is easier. Why not see if someone near you who has one will let you play with it first? That will tell you a lot.

But either way, the important thing is to look after it and sharpen it (unless it has hardened teeth like a lot of modern saws and Jap saws , in which case, when blunt, throw it out and buy the saw that you want). You can pay others to sharpen it (but often they don't do a good job and some of them don't sharpen at all, but just punch out a new set of teeth), but it really isn't hard and it is quite therapeutic. I often sharpen a saw, a couple of chisels or a plane blade when I have got to a point with a job where I know (bitter experience finally teaches even me) that if I try to push it further I am likely to rush something and create a stuff up.

Sorry for the further rant. I'm just practising for a lesson I have to start giving my son....

New verses old, cheap verses expensive .....

Speaking as an individual interested in what makes other's tick, I would find it fascinating to determine what the different types are that frequent this woodworking forum, and what they hope to get out of woodworking.

I think one would find an enormous number of motives, and so it would be a gross oversimplification to reduce it to professional woodworkers verses hobbiests. And even if we do so, we might be expected to find different personalities within each group, so that these groups will have different goals and methods of doing things.

Who is right? Impossible to say. It depends from whence you come.

I am a professional clinical psychologist by day. One of the areas I have been involved in for more than 25 years is neuropsychological assessment, that is, understanding the relationship between brain functioning and behaviour. Over the years I accumulated a large number of psychological tests that measure cognitive skills. I have got to know these well, and even though some are now old and "outdated", they continue to provide me with helpful information in my pursuit of a diagnosis. Should I discard them because the norms are "old"? Should I buy the latest ubeaut psychometric tool because it is the latest ubeaut tool. Much of the time the tool is unimportant because the best tool I have is really my knowledge and experience, and knowing what and how to do what needs to be done. My library of tests looks worn and bedraggled. I keep saying to myself that I will buy new tests, nice bright and new tests .. but put it off. I am sure that if I walked into the rooms of a new graduate that they would have a library of shiny new tests that really look the business. There is a little cynic in me that then questions whether they know how to use these shiny new ubeat tools (because I read the assessment reports of others and frequently find the analysis to be simplistic... and I look at the shiny new tests and I wonder whether the authors of these actually have any real understanding of how the psyche functions .. all so superficial). I must add that one of the reasons I started out on this path was my curiosity, and so I love to learn, and I still will try and gain knowledge from even these flawed tools. It is important, then, that I retain as much objectivity as I can, and as much awareness of my bias, otherwise I will be lost in my own sense of self-importance.

At the nd of the day, however, I am a pro in my area and I do not "need" many tools to do my job. The major tool is my brain.

I see the same position for professional woodworkers. They must look at hobbiests like myself and see someone who creates unnecessary complications. KISS - Keep it simple, stupid! I agree ... or I would agree, but I am not a professional woodworker, so I am permitted the luxury of satisfying my curiosity, along with my desire to master skills, by using as many tools as I can afford to own. Again, if I were a professional woodworker, I would do it very differently. I would ask, "what works?", or "what is sufficient to get the job done?". Anything beyond that is the domain of the hobbiest.

Still, one must not look down on the hobbiest. We are all here with the same intention, that is, ..... Mmmm .... I was going to write "a desire to build furniture/boxes/whatever", but some are not here for that. Some enjoy the peace and privacy of the workshop - and spend their time building a workshop and nothing else. Others seem to enjoy accumulating tools around them, as if owning works of art. Yet others want the security of knowing that they are Prepared, as if they were boy scouts or survivalists, and could build that dresser if ever asked (but please don't ask). I am sure that others just want to meet friends on the forums. There are no "right" or "wrongs" here, and anyone who wishes to prescribe to others what "should be" needs to take a quiet moment to think it through.

So .... what tools are best? Is there a difference in one handsaw over another? Is the Adria better than the Crown?

The answer is "it depends", "yes, but ...", and "yes, until ...".

Is anyone still reading this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek

As usual, I agree entirely.

I don't even have tatty old books - my profession depends on nosing out the problems. I see the yougsters come in with computer-loads ful of stuff and when push comes to shove, they look at the issues and say "on the one hand....; and on the other..." and then they come and talk to me and I say:"I think this is what you should do....; and this is why....".

Same with tools. Buy as many as you want, but remember, they only work as well as you maintain them.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

So .... what tools are best? Is there a difference in one handsaw over another? Is the Adria better than the Crown?

The answer is "it depends", "yes, but ...", and "yes, until ...".

Is anyone still reading this?

yep. I read it. and I think your right.

... unfortuneatly, jisk, you probably won't 'really' know whats best for you until you've tried everything. And for most its not practical to buy everything.

Depends what sort of person you are. and if you just like collecting tools, thats ok too if it makes you happy.

I'm the sort of person who just wants to know. So, I try everything. I buy a lot of old cheap beatup tools and grind them and weld them etc...just keep going until there's nothing left to explore..... some end up in the bin, but the ones that survive, that find themselves on the closest shelf I get very protective of. Because it means they work well in my hands. Reliable. I know they what they can/can't do. and you'll end up with a stronger sense of how wood cuts best.

so I don't know........there's one thing to remember though, that I think applys to everyone...... 'don't buy cheap shyt' . but, come to think of it, I have got a cheap power drill thats hasn't missed a beat in years

just don't beat yourself up eh, should you buy something that turns out to be not as good as you hoped. Bound to happen once.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I buy a lot of old cheap beatup tools and grind them and weld them etc...just keep going until there's nothing left to explore..... some end up in the bin, but the ones that survive, that find themselves on the closest shelf I get very protective of. Because it means they work well in my hands. Reliable. I know they what they can/can't do. and you'll end up with a stronger sense of how wood cuts best.

and that I think Jake is the key
knowing what a particular tool can and can't do when wielded by you to do the tasks you need to complete.

it's probable that a I might reach for a different tool to do the same task but for both of us it would be the right tool for the particular task



ian

Derek, yes I read your post .

I tend to always want to make the "best" decision. In a lot of cases, this means using my money wisely by not buying junk, and not buying a prestige tool that I don't really need. This wouldn't be a problem if my money was effectively unlimited, as I'd simply buy the best, as I'm sure most other people would. Too often the advice is to "buy the best you can afford". Well, that's all and good - I can afford the set of Adria saws, but then I'd have to go without other tools. And it could just be a waste of money as far as the difference between these tools and lesser tools.

The question isn't so much new vs old or cheap vs expensive - it's junk versus suitable versus overkill. The hard part is figuring out what is what without spending a whole chunk of cash! Apricotripper, I don't know many people that would be able to find out what suits them best by buying everything. If they were in that situation, they could just buy the best and be damned to the rest. I try and rely on information from friends, reviews, and respected members of this forum.

My goal at the end of the day is to build furniture, as a hobbyist. I like tools. Some day, I'd like to have a collection of fine hand tools. For now, I just need tools that perform well, that aren't going to make me frustrated in using them. If a tool needs to be top notch to achieve this, then so be it. If not, then I'll get away with something cheaper. The hard part is figuring out what is what. Jeremy helped me out some time ago by guiding me to mujingfang planes, which has worked out very well so far.

Insofar as what I would want in a top notch backsaw (or back saw set)? I'd want zero binding, insignificant flex in the blade, an easy cut with a smooth finish similar to a japanese saw, and I'd want it to last a lifetime.

And Dion, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Originally Posted by jisk

The question isn't so much new vs old or cheap vs expensive - it's junk versus suitable versus overkill. The hard part is figuring out what is what without spending a whole chunk of cash!

yeh, no kidding its the hard part. Its too complicated to nail everytime you want to buy a tool. Thats what I was trying to say. something you have to learn to accept.

Apricotripper, I don't know many people that would be able to find out what suits them best by buying everything. If they were in that situation, they could just buy the best and be damned to the rest. I try and rely on information from friends, reviews, and respected members of this forum.
.

I don't know many people either.... thats the problem I was describing.

its too complicated.........as I'm sure you'd know, few things are as good as they say they are........

just be aware that friends, reviews, respected members will all carry different opinions too. And often a lot of those comments is just parroting of what they've heard.

I've got dog ugly tools that the many of (uno) friends, reviews and respected members would laugh at. Who sometimes latter see how well they work are in shock or just pretend they never saw it.

There's a definetly limit to how much you'll gain from others advice alone.
Your not really gonna learn anything of real importance until you start working wood which is unfortunately AFTER you've bought the tool.

Your not gonna nail it with every tool you buy and you'll waste some money along the way. Not to mention a few hundred stuffups as well.

So, really the biggest way your going to save money is by asking yourself from the very beginning...' will I have the patience for this woodworking business ? ', ' or the time ?'

Cause most of the unused looking tools that I buy secondhand, are from people who didn't really have the time or patience for it to begin with. Now thats a waste of money ! the worlds full of tools like that.

in myyyyyyy opinion. have a good weekend eh.

Originally Posted by jisk

And Dion, sorry for hijacking your thread.

No worries! Your questions are similar to mine - I am looking for quality tools that will last a lifetime and could be passed on, not a collectors item. If buying new, I would like it to work "out of the box" without any extensive set-up.

I am a little wary on LN planes - sure they are very good, but perhaps a little overpriced for what they do. LV is considerably cheaper and performs just as well by all accounts. I would put HNT Gordon into the same category as LV, but I am going to go with Derek's advice (ie LV) as I respect his accumulated knowledge in this area.

There is quite a difference between restoring old planes and old saws - old planes are somewhat of a collectors item and can be expensive. Additionally, a thicker after-market blade is sometimes needed. Then there is the time and effort to fettle (which may be an enjoyable activity for some).

A saw is somewhat simpler to restore and you can learn the useful art of saw sharpening at the same time. I guess that learning to sharpen on an older restored saw will teach skills that would be needed should one decide to move onto a new LN, Adria or Pax saw. For those reasons, I think I will try my hand at restoring an older dovetail saw. Building a nice old-fashioned handle sounds challenging and enjoyable ( more enjoyable than endlessly rubbing a plane on sandpaper! )

Hi Dion,

late on the scene here, but if I had $1000 (assuming this is mainly for saws, planes, chisels) here's what I'd get:

If I was spending your money

1 - HNT Gordon (I like the look of Gidgee, but ironwood is slightly cheaper. Apparently Terry's doing away with the ironwood and gidgee is going to be the 'base' wood).

HSS Smoother $275
Jack $150
Trying $335
1" Shoulder - $185

Wow! There goes the $1000! You'd have $55 left for a carton of Crownies!!

If I was spending my money

1 - I'd still buy the Gordon Smoother (have to say that, I own it ). Seriously, one awesome plane once you get the hang of adjusting the blade. I'm talking the 'old' style here not the new fangdangled one. Speaking HSS blade also.
$275
2 - Gyokucho Sunchild dozuki - brilliant
3 - Gyokucho 640 Ryoba - good
http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/produ...ESE/T1400.html
http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/produ...ESE/T1405.html
$90-$100

4 - 1000-1200 and 6000-8000 japanese waterstones
http://www.hntgordon.com.au/waterstones.htm
http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/tois...hi_jinzou.html
$150-200

5 - Although Clenton tools are beautiful, it's highly unlikely I'll ever own one! Just too far out of my price range. So I'll say $50 for a decent 'square'.

5 - Whats left ($375. $575! if you don't need the waterstones.) would sit in my bank account specifically for flea markets/ebay, or money towards a bandsaw maybe?)
I'd go after:
- a set of old Berg bevel edged chisels (although Titan are OK and probably cheaper. Not as popular). $100-$150
- couple or 3 old pigstabbers $50
- Stanley #7 $60-$80?
I'm having trouble thinking what else I'd 'need' to be honest! I'd just keep looking around/watching ebay. Snapping up old tools to 'fill in the gaps'.

I'd still sneak in a few 'extra' new tools over time:
Both Gordon Spokeshaves for eg. You know, the kind you can get away with without SWMBOs knowledge (not that that's possible, but you can try!). The Gordon 1" shoulder plane made it in undetected! Much easier to sneak a 1" shoulder plane into the shed than a 14" bandsaw! I'm seriously looking at the Triton Wet Grinder ATM, but can't decide how easy that will be to slip past her.

cheers,

--
Mark

I'm not sure if you've spent your $1000 yet. If not, make sure you invest in sharpening tools (honing guide, sharpening stones etc). Depending on what stones you get, you should allocate ~$200 for this. Check the Sharpening part of this forum for set ups others use (I wouldn't be without my Veritas MkII honing guide and waterstones). You can blow double your budget on a Micou plane but without a finely honed edge even such a plane would be nothing but a paperweight. Mind you, it'd be a very pretty paperweight

Thanks for all the replies and advice. My entire budget has now been transferred to Mr Rob Lee's retirement fund! I have ordered the MKII honing guide, waterstone, BU smoother, LA Jack and Apron Block plane. 8-12 weeks in the supposed delivery timeframe.

in the meantime ... I took the old Tyzack dovetail I bought last year and filed off all the teeth. Using the pictures on the Norse Woodsmith site http://www.norsewoodmsith.com, I recut it to 13 PPI rip (using a 4" Extra Slim Taper - I know it should of been Double Extra slim, but that's the only file I had) Next, I perused the mountains of junk in my local 2nd hand store and managed to accquire an Eclipse no 77 saw set in Brass for $20. It cuts OK and leaves a smooth finish, but grabs a little as I didn't quite get the teeth evenly sized. Still, I'm happy with my first attempt.