Thread: I've got a good hand plane idea...what would you do with it ?

Seriously, ask Rob Lee. You can reach him thru' the Lee Valley mail order e-mail address.

He has vastly more experience in International patents than anyone else on this forum - and International patents is where the money is made or lost. I'd also recomment Veritas if you even want to see your 'baby' make the big time commercially.

Originally Posted by bsrlee

Seriously, ask Rob Lee. You can reach him thru' the Lee Valley mail order e-mail address.

He has vastly more experience in International patents than anyone else on this forum - and International patents is where the money is made or lost. I'd also recomment Veritas if you even want to see your 'baby' make the big time commercially.

Thanks. I should write to him.

The whole thing is making me feel quite anxious actually.

I know little about whats involved. But I can't see an easy road whatsoever.

For a bloke to be interested in my idea, or even give me some of his time to listen.....he'll want to hear the idea, right ? But if I tell him ( and I want to tell the world)...couldn't he just say.....' no, no good, thanks anway for the idea ' ......then just pinch it anyway:confused:

And if I try and protect it with thousand dollar patents (if thats right), whats stopping him from twisting my idea slightly and getting around it ?
There goes my money. right ? A hundred bucks, let alone a thousand, is hard earned around here.

It seems like an impossible process.

Jake

if it's relatively simple, you could place it in the public domain and ask people who like your design to contribute $10, $20, $50 to you (via PayPal?) if they make a copy

overwise you really need a good patent lawyer or a trusted third party who will pay you a licience fee (or buy your idea outright)

ian

Talk to the small buisness development corporation as they will give you advice on the process and point you in the right direction.

I have spoken to them before and they gave us some information. It dosnt
cost anything but I have not gone any further so I cant advise on how expensive it is from there on

Hi Jake,

Rob is extremely ethical. Contact first. Describe what it does without design detail. If he is interested there will be a form for all to sign concerning what would happen in the event it is investigated and design was actually shared.

Rob's email is [email protected]

Several of the tools they make began as someone else's design. There are many options after interest is shown, including Veritas buying the idea, royalties etc.

There is also the option of finding a means of having them made for you via pattern makers/foundries, etc. These take capital investment on your part, though.

Here's wishing you the best...

Take care, Mike

All the above is good advice. A long time ago the Patents Office had a fairly simple to understand brochure explaing "what to do" for amateur designers - contacting the PO may be a good first step, and a Patents lawer is a must, somewhere early in the process.

soth

Jake

As you may know I am a commercial lawyer in private practice (normally working on takeovers, prospectuses etc, but I have done my share of IP work over the years). From that background my free advice is that in a sense the question you have to answer first is "What do you want to do with this idea?" Once you answer that, it becomes much easier to decide how to achieve that goal.

Some ideas of what yu may want to do:

1. Manufacture and become the next Stanley Rule and Level Co: for this you need cash and lots of it and real engineering and manufacturing, distribution and sales expertise (you can buy this in if you have enough cash behind you). This is what Ralph Sarich started off wanting to do with his orbital engine. If this is what you want , get a patent attorney and get underway with patent applications at least here, in the US, and in the EU and then hit the road to find financial backers and a good advice team. PS you may have to move from Kyogle. Highest risk = highest potential return.
2. Get someone else to manufacture and take a licence fee: this is probably where you fit and where the advice to talk to Rob Lee also comes in. If you find someone you like and can trust (and always check someone out before and after meeting them with others who have dealt with him (eg major suppliers and customers and former business partners)), then let them do the heavy lifting on IP protection and the rest. The downside with this is, of course, that you lose control of the project and become subject to you partner's business objectives and priorities. It can be frustrating to see them botch up the manufacture or the sales and marketing and you will need to negotiate a good contract so that you can at least have approval rights. Infinite possibilities here but you usually only get one chance to get it right because once you have committed to one guy it is usually hard to get the project back (although it has been done). I agree that the new tool companies like Lee Valley, Veritas and LieNeilsen would be where I would start (and maybe talk to the guy who came up with AngleMag or Roger Gifkins or the WASP guy about their experiences).
3. You think that the idea is one that anyone could manufacture in their shed - then give up the idea of making money and just put it on the web and bask in the glory of being known as the guy who created the best combination plane. Who knows - the industry may like it and then come to you to invent new tools for them, wanting to sell them on the back of your reputation from the "free" idea. That's how a lot of IT stuff works now.

Clearly this isn't a complete list, but it may give you some idea of the kind of factors you need to take into consideration. Then you need perserverance, time and LUCK. And try to get the best advice you can afford (legal, financial, accounting and tax) at the beginning. These things are much better if they start off right than if you have to try to rescue them from the pit of bad previous advice.

Best of luck.

Jeremy

Thanks Ian and Mark.

I'm not sure about putting it on public domain and asking people to volenteer money. Does that actually work ? ...what stops people from just coping it and not paying anything ? ......

Be nice to keep it Austrailian made I suppose too. But then I can't worry about that if that means the idea won't develop. I'm just not sure yet.

Originally Posted by MikeW

Hi Jake,

Rob is extremely ethical. Contact first. Describe what it does without design detail. If he is interested there will be a form for all to sign concerning what would happen in the event it is investigated and design was actually shared.

Rob's email is [email protected]

Several of the tools they make began as someone else's design. There are many options after interest is shown, including Veritas buying the idea, royalties etc.

There is also the option of finding a means of having them made for you via pattern makers/foundries, etc. These take capital investment on your part, though.

Here's wishing you the best...

Take care, Mike

Thanks Mike. That seems like the way to go.

Could I send you a few photos and description, and get your opinion first before Leevalley ? ... I'd like to hear your honest opinion (pro's and cons). I may be missing something important that may the kill the idea.

It'll take a week or so to get it all together though. I'd try to keep it brief.

Thanks Soth. I'll give them a call too.

Originally Posted by jmk89

Jake

As you may know I am a commercial lawyer in private practice (normally working on takeovers, prospectuses etc, but I have done my share of IP work over the years). From that background my free advice is that in a sense the question you have to answer first is "What do you want to do with this idea?" Once you answer that, it becomes much easier to decide how to achieve that goal.

Some ideas of what yu may want to do:

1. Manufacture and become the next Stanley Rule and Level Co: for this you need cash and lots of it and real engineering and manufacturing, distribution and sales expertise (you can buy this in if you have enough cash behind you). This is what Ralph Sarich started off wanting to do with his orbital engine. If this is what you want , get a patent attorney and get underway with patent applications at least here, in the US, and in the EU and then hit the road to find financial backers and a good advice team. PS you may have to move from Kyogle. Highest risk = highest potential return.
2. Get someone else to manufacture and take a licence fee: this is probably where you fit and where the advice to talk to Rob Lee also comes in. If you find someone you like and can trust (and always check someone out before and after meeting them with others who have dealt with him (eg major suppliers and customers and former business partners)), then let them do the heavy lifting on IP protection and the rest. The downside with this is, of course, that you lose control of the project and become subject to you partner's business objectives and priorities. It can be frustrating to see them botch up the manufacture or the sales and marketing and you will need to negotiate a good contract so that you can at least have approval rights. Infinite possibilities here but you usually only get one chance to get it right because once you have committed to one guy it is usually hard to get the project back (although it has been done). I agree that the new tool companies like Lee Valley, Veritas and LieNeilsen would be where I would start (and maybe talk to the guy who came up with AngleMag or Roger Gifkins or the WASP guy about their experiences).
3. You think that the idea is one that anyone could manufacture in their shed - then give up the idea of making money and just put it on the web and bask in the glory of being known as the guy who created the best combination plane. Who knows - the industry may like it and then come to you to invent new tools for them, wanting to sell them on the back of your reputation from the "free" idea. That's how a lot of IT stuff works now.

Clearly this isn't a complete list, but it may give you some idea of the kind of factors you need to take into consideration. Then you need perserverance, time and LUCK. And try to get the best advice you can afford (legal, financial, accounting and tax) at the beginning. These things are much better if they start off right than if you have to try to rescue them from the pit of bad previous advice.

Best of luck.

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy. Makes it clear for me. Much help.

Point 1's definetly no good....though I'd like to do it. Just haven't the money. We're quite a content family here, but we live in the low income bracket and I don't have a qualification (I work as a handy man mostly now days. Fencing tomorrow on a farm. Building a cubboard this week etc). Day to day living, uno. I've never been particularily clever, unfortuneatly in making money. But I do like to work hard. I can't handle laziness.

Point 2.....is probably the only way. I suppose the question is, how much in royalties would one get ? ...uno, is it worth the effort ?

I'd imagine, like you say, go with the better companies. Sounds like the best option I'd have.

Point 3...... yes, anybody can do it, by modifying an existing plane. Which is what I've done to form a prototype. And its making all sorts of interesting cuts that I just didn't think was possible.

But the modifications are extensive enough that I think people would be put off doing it. uno, suggests reworking a new design from fresh. Many dont' like to permanently modify old planes I've notcied. Have to drill holes etc into your 'precious' plane

What I was intending on doing initially , was posting a description of the idea up here on this forum. Photos taken (sequental shots and all sorts of things) , and I'd written up a quick draft. But then I noticed a pattern in the idea, and I expanded on it, which made it possible to make many other cuts......and it just got better and better. And I realized, this is not just fun anymore. This could make me some muney. I shouldn't just give it away. I'm certain it just hasn't been done before.

You could sell the plane with say a dozern different blades.

I'm personally thrilled with the idea. Combination planes are fiddly for many, and I felt this plane was the opposite. It actually questions the need for buying many specialized router bits on the market. It sounds far fetched to many for shore, but it be actually quite practical in industry as well. (IMO)

Anyway....

Jake, there's been some really good info already. A few things I can add are:

This is not a commercial product, it is a home/hobbiest product. The specialists in this field are LV, LN and one other that has been missed; the inventor of the Triton, George Lewin. He runs The Triton Foundation, an organisation started to help new inventors along the way.

If you were to place your trust in any of the big players, Rob Lee would be at the top of the list. You could certainly offset your fears by getting a non disclosure agreement or a patent first.

Good luck.

Thanks Groggy. Triton sounds like another good option.

excuse....but...'non disclosure agreement' means what exactly again ? ...

Maybe the sort of thing MikeW was talking about above ?

Good luck, Jake It would be great to see some of your brilliant ideas put into production.

Cheers

Paul

Originally Posted by apricotripper

excuse....but...'non disclosure agreement' means what exactly again ? ...

wiki has a good description

Having a good well written patent is one thing on its own... and not a cheap process.

Having the resources to defend your patent is another thing all together remember there are no patent police.

Remember a patent is simply a means of documenting and registering your intelectual property..... you are then on your own to detect and prosecute any breaches.
Then you have to register your patent seperately in all the various countries.....


Oh bugger it.... it just tooo hard unless you have a bucket of cash.


I recon rob lee is your best bet.

failing that set up and sell the plans over the internet.

Also
As far as any IP protection.... as soon as you publish it..... its gone.


Following on from that
If you decide to publish.
Coppyright is automatic in this country..... however..... it only protects your "written or drawn EXPRESSION" of the idea.

So this doppy idea that you can stop someone commercialy exploiting a published plan by used of coppyright it a load of old coblers.

Its a real bugger trying to make a dollar out of an idea.

cheers