Thread: LN dovetail saw

Originally Posted by sinjin1111

...And what were you going to do about sharping and setting the LN blade.
Sinjin

Yeah, Sinjin - this is where a lot of owners of LNs, Adrias or fancy Paxes are going to come to grief, I reckon. The first time you have that nice saw butchered by your average saw-sharpening service, they become equal with any old el-cheapo you can pick up for a few bucks at a hardware store near you. 'Real' sawdoctors are about to become extinct, as a species.

They are nice-looking saws, and from the reviews you see, work pretty well. But you can make just about any half-decent saw work pretty well once you get the hang of sharpening and setting. Every now and then I see one of these bits of jewelry in a display cupboard, and think it would look spiffy hanging in my tool cupboard, but I doubt it would work any better than the set I've had for more than 20 years. And the handles, although better than the detestable things on most new saws, are still not up to scratch - compare with the beautifully-finished things on any decent workaday saw from the '30s and you'll immediately see what I mean.

Japanese-style saws have a lot going for them, like ultra-thin kerfs and quick action. I've tried to get to like them, but after a lifetime of pushing saws, I just can't get comfy with that long handle, the completely different feel, and havng the saw feathering my line as I cut. That's pretty reactionary, I know, and if you were to start off with them, I imagine you'd find the whole idea of push-saws weird.

But maybe most telling of all - I hate the throw-away aspect. All but 2 of my saws are serving a second (at least) owner, and most will do good service for a 3rd or 4th, yet. As long as you can still buy 100mm ESt and DEST files, that is!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by sinjin1111

Anyone bought an LN dovetail saws? Just wondering how you thought it stacks up against the Japanese saws. And what were you going to do about sharping and setting the LN blade.
Sinjin

Yep, I've got one, and I think it's brilliant; comfortable to hold, easy to saw a straight line, and looks good. The only Japanese saw I've used is the veritas flush-cut saw, only set on one side. I still use the LN saw for dovetail and dovetail-like cuts. I had it sharpened by a saw sharpening service and they seem to have done a good job with it.

I wonder if the new Lie-Nielsen distributor in Australia will offer a saw sharpening service? I guess you could always send your saw back to Lie-Nielsen in Warren, Maine, for sharpening. Not sure what the cost of postage would be.

I've got an old tenon saw that I have tried to sharpen myself a few times, but I've yet to acquire that skill. The saw still grabs and jumps, and either leaves a wide sloppy kerf, or if I reduce the set, the saw jams in the kerf. I'm not game to sharpen the LN myself until I can get that damned tenon saw working properly.:mad:

One last thought: sharpening the LN may be tricky, but it's got to be much simpler than sharpening a Japanese saw.:eek:

If you get an Adria saw you can send it back to Terry Gordon for sharpening.

I'd imagine that Henry Bros would do a good job also.

Originally Posted by craigb

If you get an Adria saw you can send it back to Terry Gordon for sharpening.

Does he sharpen LNs as well?

I'd imagine that Henry Bros would do a good job also.

Who're they?

I don't know if Terry does LN's too. I can't see why he wouldn't. Why not shoot him an email and ask.

Henry Brothers are suppliers of superior quality bansdsaw blades among other things.

They also supply jointer and thicknesser knives.

From their borchure I picked up at the Sydney Show:

...If it cut,slices,dices, chips or chops ... Henry's can supply or sharpen it!

They also have a pretty good reputation. Have a look in the archives for testimonials from satisified customers.

ph 02 9627 5486

email: [email protected]

Hth
Craig

Woodborer and Major Panic both have them (and I think they like 'em) PM them and i'm willing to be that they would be happy to give you their thoughts.

-Ryan

I have already spoken to Sinjin on the phone about this subject and we came to the conclusion it needs further discussion face to face.

I think that one of Derek's posts had one cheekily featured too...

Originally Posted by IanW

Japanese-style saws have a lot going for them, like ultra-thin kerfs and quick action. I've tried to get to like them, but after a lifetime of pushing saws, I just can't get comfy with that long handle, the completely different feel, and havng the saw feathering my line as I cut. That's pretty reactionary, I know, and if you were to start off with them, I imagine you'd find the whole idea of push-saws weird.

But maybe most telling of all - I hate the throw-away aspect.
Cheers,

I've grown fond of the jap saws. Don't know why exactly but they made all the difference to my dovetailing. I'm immensely attracted to the clean cuts they make. Making it possible to consistantly get fits straight from the saw without chisel pruning even if I'm out of practise. I've found they work best for me when I let the wieght of the saw do all the work to first establish a fine shallow cut all along all sides of your scribed line with very small, fast back and forth movements, rocking as you go. Once thats done I can be confident with the cut not going astray and just let her rip.

They have there downsides though I reakon. One thing that annoys me about them is that when they cut they don't throw the sawdust away like the push saws seem to do more; which means the dust is always hiding the line your trying to follow. So I've sort of developed a habit of blowing on the cut as I saw; which can be awkward and must look funny to others .
Also they sometimes wonder about abit, espesially in hardwoods, guess thats because their so thin. But for dovetailing, which generally involves sawing moderately thin stock that doesn't seem to be a problem. But I'd never consider, say, using them for cutting a big thick tennon unless its a softwood like pine.I tried once cutting a hardwood tenon and it was clear that a traditional sharp push saw would have worked better.

And the other big downside, I agree Ian, is that you can't resharpen them. Which is something generally I have a problem with. Same sort of feeling there when buying router bits....I can't sharpen them either(can maybe once but thats about it). The jap saws blades do seem to last a while though, at least the ones I have when used for just dovetailing.

How much does a LN dovetail saw cost ???

I agonised over which tenon saws to buy, read all of the reviews, did all of the scientific stuff ..... and bought Adria simply because Terry Gordon sells them. As CraigB said, Terry or Henry Bros will sharpen and I'd trust both. Henry Bros are simply the World's best kept secret for sharp things, their 3/4" resaw blade is a joy! Fletty

Hi Sinjin

Oooooh, this is opening Pandora's Box .....!! :eek:

Contrary to rumour I do not have nearly enough dovetail saws. I have a couple, and one of them in the LN Independence Dovetail saw, 15 tpi rip. This is a beaut of a saw, but it does take some getting used to since it cuts very aggressively. By this I do not just mean that it cuts fast, which it does (more so than any other similar saw), but that it is a little tricky to start a cut with. Once going it goes very well, but the start can/does put off a lot of users.

Western saws are more relevant in Australia than Japanese saws. The reason I say this is because Japanese saws are designed for softwoods and are quite fragile - they lose teeth relatively easily when cutting local hardwoods. You can get away with a Japanese saw for a long time if you are careful, but eventually they will need to be replaced. Just to put this in perspective, my reach-for dovetail saw - when the cut I am to make needs extra care - is a Japanese Z-saw. Wafer thin, with great care, it cuts superbly. Because it has minimal set, the end grain walls of the cut look like they were just planed. I also recently bought a Japanese dovetail saw from Carba-tec that Rob Lee was raving about as a Veritas saw (well it is in Canada). In Oz it is badged "made in Japan". It is rip set and cuts very well - feels a bit more solid than the Z-saw, but that may be due to the Bubinga handle.

Back to Western saws. They rule in hardwood. Before I got the LN Independence I had bought a John Cotterill 10" dovetail saw quite cheaply from a market. Blunt - well itwas about 100 years old - so I sharpened it myself and set the teeth. Sharpening dovetail saws - rip - is really quite easy when you know what to do. Just don't do too many or you'll go blind (Now who told me that when I was younger?). Get hold of the Tom Law DVD from LN (and others). Go to http://www.vintagesaws.com/

OK, the John Cotterill dovetail saw (JC for short). This now out performs the LN Independence. I have a few other backsaws - Disston and Nurse - and they all cut superbly. Some still have their factory grind.

The point is that old dovetail saws are easy to renovate, and can easily equal, and better, the modern versions.

One other I have that is worth experimenting with (since it is quite cheap) is the Crown 10" Gent saw - 17 tpi rip. It did a nice job out of the box.

The problem with most cheap new Western dovetail saws is that they have poorly set teeth. This is, however, easy to fix. If they pull to one side, run that side carefully, slowly ONCE over a diamond stone. Try it again. Ditto. Remember, it is easy to take off set, it is impossible to put it back (without redoing it).

So where does the LN stand, how does it stack up? It is a very fine dovetail saw. The Adria is identical to it. If you owned and used one you would love it. It looks so good, feels so good. The only downside is price - but if this is a hobby purchase and you can justify it, what the Hell. Go for it. You can (and should) learn to sharpen it yourself. If you are unsure, recognise that there are many other options.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sinjin, find a library that has Aus Wood Review, a couple of issues ago they had a test of a number of hand saws that included LN, Pax, Adria, Veritas and a couple of jap saws.

Interesting reading.


Cheers.............Sean, rough sawn

Once again, Derek argues a very cogent and complete case!

I reassert my (only slightly over-stated) opinion, that at the first sharpening, ALL saws become equal......

Cheers,

It seems a pity to spend good money on a saw and have someone butcher it but I suppose that is a reflection of our times, a lot of skills have been lost. I was admiring the work on a Collard and Collard paino the other day and was thinking to myself "it would be very hard to find someone to do this in 2005...".