Thread: Sawing basics - Underhill and Schwarz presenting Robert Wearings three classes of cut

what i found interesting is that there are not many resources on the how to of sawing doing a forum or google search.

here is the same content in a Lee valley article

so i an effort to practice these techniques and sawing todays job called for a 2nd class and 1st class cut.

Having marked out for the second class cut with my IanW knife i took the prescribed wedge out of the corner to start with a chisel
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Then commenced to saw in the wedge and then proceeded across the end grain
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Then followed the knife line down one edge
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Then followed through the kerf to cut the other side

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Finished saw cut thru both sides. Should mention that both cuts should be at 10 degrees.

Ok so now to the next cut which is a "1st class"

Line marked with the IanW cutting gauge and knife then chisel used to deepen the knife line the I pared out the wedge as described
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Commenced sawing thru and result
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Minimal paring required to get to this
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So now it would seem that i can saw!

Things to remember
1. Clean the crud off the saw before you use it.
2. Pointing the index finger along the saw really helps
3. Relaxed grip and not choking the handle helps as well.

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Above is yesterdays attempt without being pared. The change in result due to technique is noticable particulary on the crosscut ( the 1st class cut).

Originally Posted by Pac man

So now it would seem that i can saw!

Things to remember
1. Clean the crud off the saw before you use it.
2. Pointing the index finger along the saw really helps
3. Relaxed grip and not choking the handle helps as well.

Polishing the saw helps too, for perpendicular cuts. Align the mirror image of the wood with the part on the other side. The mirror image doubles the error, and is easier to detect.

Cheers,
Joe

Thanks Joe, lucky i have a shiny "Wilk-cut" crosscut saw for this purpose as most of my saws are vintage and will never be shiny again!

Some of Chris Schwarz's methods seem odd to me. My woodwork teacher in grades 7 & 8 was an ex-cabinetmaker & he taught us the sawing methods he'd learned as an apprentice, I suppose, but I don't know how 'traditional' or otherwise they were. There are always many ways to skin the cat....

Most saw cuts are not going to show, or be removed altogether by shooting the cut ends, for example, so I guess they are what you'd call 3rd-class cuts. However, most cuts need to be accurate, & we were encouraged to learn how to saw bang-on the right hand side, waste-side, of any line (if you are a right-hander), you only 'split the line' for a few applications. Tenon cheeks are probably one of the few places I would saw such a 'tight' line. Paring was considered a waste of valuable time, so the idea was to get things to fit properly straight off the saw, wherever possible. It does take a decent saw & a bit of practice to be able to do this reliably.

Where you want a very clean cut for an edge that is going to be visible, such as your tenon shoulder, we were shown to cut a fat hair-breadth wide of the line (waste-side, of course), then chop down vertically (or slightly undercut if it is a 4-shouldered tenon, or the sides won't be visible), with a wide, and very sharp chisel. The trick is to leave just a teeny amount of wood to be removed so you get a very clean cut, and register your chisel carefully in the knife-line, with generous overlaps on each cut:

shoulder trimmed.jpg

It seems a lot easier to me to do it this way than chiselling out a vee before sawing, & with a little practice (& decent woods!), you can make very clean & accurate shoulders this way. But perhaps it's just a matter of what you learn & get used to. I will also confess that these days I often chop the shoulders fairly quickly, then take a couple of swipes with a shoulder-plane if there are any small imperfrctions, particularly on wide ones.

Most of the procedures in w'working take a fair bit of practice to do well, and the trouble is, you need to keep practising, just as with anything that requires manual dexterity. F'rinstance, I rarely chop mortises by hand since I got my hollow-chisel mortiser, & when I am forced to do it now, I labour over them like a beginner!

Thanks Ian for your contribution. As i said in my second post there seems to be a vacuum of information on a how to of sawing when compared to say saw sharpening or hand planing.
Back in school I do remember being told to cut on the waste side of the line. I couldn't seem to be able to do it consistently but then its not something that i do regularly until deciding to improve on this over the weekend.

Hi Pacman. Regarding the how-to on sawing ... I've picked up some stuff but I have no idea right now how that would break down between reading in the forum, trying some stuff out and watching videos online and dvds, so I'll just try to keep that floating around in the cranium in case I think of or come across a useful reference. Did Paul Sellers have something? (I do like Roy and Chris together, clowning around )

I have been trying and thinking some stuff, but I don't want to mess on your thread so I started another one. (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/s...sic-ly-168597/)

What tpi or ppi is your saw? Did you say it was a Wilkut^tm? How long is it?

One comment ... is it pine? I don't know if softwood rewards careful sawing as much as hardwood(?) I can't say, because I'm pretty sure I haven't done enough careful sawing. Maybe some others can relate their experiences.

I think with a low set it is possible to produce some really good surfaces straight from the saw. I also know that with a low set you can be blinding and cursing and having an awful time sawing a given piece of wood. I can't say I know where the line falls in any scenario - but I do enjoy sawing when I am right beside the line and the kerf seems just barely wide enough for the saw but everything is moving perfectly and the saw is like a flat, toothy laser.

I guess the nick to start a cut is a good idea, but I think it is something that you wouldn't keep doing after a while. I think having the thumb there pressing above the tooth-line is something I would want with or without the nick.

Maybe you could get it started a bit with a finer saw ... but if you are already using quite a fine-toothed saw (eg a backsaw) then I am doing this (in the case of a tenon): start in, and turn that into a shallow accurate cut across the top of the piece, then work diagonally down your rear line, then across the rest of the top, and finally down the front line. I know some people turn the tenon around ... and I wouldn't listen to anything I said in any case.

Finally, I'm not sure it is so hard to remove set. You can fold one or two sheets of paper over the toothline, then put it between some softwood strips and squeeze it all in a vice. If that didn't take off enough then hardwood strips or less paper.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

....Finally, I'm not sure it is so hard to remove set. You can fold one or two sheets of paper over the toothline, then put it between some softwood strips and squeeze it all in a vice. If that didn't take off enough then hardwood strips or less paper.

Paul - it's not so hard to remove set if you have to, there are a few ways to do it. What I find, is it's hard to remove evenly , by whatever method I choose. Well, it has been so, but perhaps with more practice it would get better. However, I don't see any point in gaining that skill yet - it's just a lot easier to sneak up on the right amount than having to back-off, imo.

Cheers,

Pacman ... this might be partly what you're looking for ...

only came across it today ... very good detail for us neophytic sawyers ...

also I'm thinking Paul Sellers might be a chance also ...

The saws have low set - and I think you can see some resistance to motion even in this shallow (but long) cut.

(Personal evaluation) I think at this stage I'd rather do a cut that long with a non-back-saw.
Having written that and thinking about why ... I think it is the more rectangular shape of the backsaw (more weight out front) ...
and the greater height of the handsaw helps me better judge vertical.
That might then bring thoughts around to why backsaws might have canted blades again. (ie as previously discussed)

Paul Seller's basic approach ... I quite like this ...

Chris demoed this live at the Handtool event.

The chisel Vee cut along the scribe line served two purposes from memory. One was to keep a nice clean edge to the cut, the second was about registering the saw for the cut so you know your starting straight with the blade sitting in the groove and this should help eliminate the small back draws of the saw people tend to use to start the cut.

The whole principle was to avoid doing any post cut work, paring or planing.