Thread: Which Smoothing Plane in Reversing Oak Grain

Rich

I have already replied to you privately, and suggested that you look at the LV LA Smoother with a 50 degree bevel (= 62 degree cutting angle). The Mujingfang is a superb plane, but not as versatile as this LV. The #112 is also a superior user on reversing grain, but this is limited to hardwoods only.

I just thought I would also mention - and throw out as a teaser to the hooligans who frequent this site - that last night I had a chance to demo the new LV Bevel Up Smoother at a ww club meeting. I don't think that they have arrived in Oz as yet, so no one there had seen one (in fact no one had seen the LA Smoother either). I was passed a piece of Silky Oak. After I got bored with creating a smooth, tearout free surface on this, I turned the board around and planed it equally well into the grain. Then curious, I did exactly the same with the LA Smoother, with the same results.

I have a full review of these planes in the works, but I can say that the new Bevel Up Smoother (which is about the size of a #4-1/2) is the best smoother I have ever used.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Rich Johnson

apricotripper, you don't really have a mirror in front of your stones, do you (???).
Rich

Yes I do have a mirror there ,,,,not intentionally though for shaving,,,,,have a straight razor for that .,,I have a couple of long mirrors without frames that I didn't want to throw out and theres just know where else to put them in my cramped shed. So they ended up behind my sharpening station .....truthfully did test them that way for a while because my misses hates that 'prickilly' feeling when she runs her hand over my forearms.....so I started testing under my neck....did that for a while until one day she came in and saw me and screamed......she thought I was trying to knock myself off or something ....she gave me such a fright I cut my neck(just lightly)......a little line of blood flowed and this just made her scream more ..... very anxious morning that was ..... something straight out of 'faulty towers'....

But, frankly , you should aim for your tools to be that sharp.....straight from the polishing stone they should be that sharp that the lightest touch will cut....its the only way to work wood I think...

Originally Posted by Rich Johnson

ryanarcher:

1)The grain is not higly figured, it just reverses like once but once is all it takes and I can't necessarily predict when it changes.

imho it's worth it to try to take the time to try to read the grain, and plane with it. Look for rays in the tangential surface which may run countrer to the direction of figure.

however, understanding that's impossible sometimes, here's my 2 cents (which is really all it's worth ):

I have both Hnt gordon smoothers, and LN & LV bevel up smoothers. While terry's planes are impeccably crafted and work brilliant, I always reach for the LA planes. like derek says, they are superb. I highly reccomend a LV LA jack with an extra High bevel angle blade. it's the first off my shelf 90% of the time. (whereas my LV scraper plane rarely gets used) I Promise you won't be dissapointed.

3) Does the hand plane leave a smoother surface than the scraper?? I think when I was first starting out I definitely noticed a difference in smoothness between the scraper and regular plane. However, when I honed the scraper just like a plane blade, things got a lot closer.

My planes leave a smoother surface than my scrapers, but that may just be me.


Outback,

why is 48 degrees not an optimum sharpening angle for a blade? what is an ideal sharpening angle and why? i thought they were just different angles for different purposes. :confused:

Outback,
why is 48 degrees not an optimum sharpening angle for a blade? what is an ideal sharpening angle and why? i thought they were just different angles for different purposes

Let me start by saying my 2c is worth considerably less than yours.
To answer your query however, a blade sharpened to a particualrly acute angle will cut superbly, but will be damaged easily. Conversly a blade sharpened to a less acute angle may hold its edge better but won't "cut" as well. My own opinion, backed up with no data whatsoever, is that if the angle is increased too far even this "edge holding" pay off diminishes. How long does the HNT blade last when in "scraper mode"?

My guess is that if we could anylyse the cutting angle of lots of things, knives, chisels, planes etc, I reckon the mean would be around 25-30 degrees.


P.S. I'm a bit disappointed that Derek has chosen to give private consultations regarding plane selection now. I mean how will another pome fruit - plane officendo argument erupt for our reading pleasure.

I highly reccomend a LV LA jack with an extra High bevel angle blade. it's the first off my shelf 90% of the time. (whereas my LV scraper plane rarely gets used) I Promise you won't be dissapointed.

Now we're throwing in the jack plane??? Do you use this for final smoothing, too?? Shouldn't I get the shorter LA smoother first???

I originally sent this note to Derek but I am including this in case there's further discussion based upon it:

Hi Derek,

Its a difficult decision... I go back and forth on this. I get the general feeling that the 112 is not as widely used. I guess I'm basing my opinion for purchasing the 112 on an old #4 Stanley and consequently, I figure all the planes will have some of the same tear-out problems. I have never tried anything else.

Okay, now I'm changing my mind again...

I saw your post on the forum and appreciate your insight. Alright, if I'm hearing you right, either the LA Smoother or the new bevel-up smoother will do a good job, even against the grain. Is this correct?? To be quite honest, I don't think that my oak is any where near the worst of the woods to plane, even against the grain.

Now, I can spend the extra for the LA Smoother (it just has to be worth the extra), I just need to decide between the new bevel-up version and the standard LA version. By your post at the forum, you had stated that the new bevel-up smoother was the best smoother you have ever used. Should I rather purchase the new bevel-up smoother rather than the standard LA smoother? I know that the new bevel-up plane is not meant for shooting, but I can probably use one of my Stanley's (#4,#5,#7) for this.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again,

Rich

Originally Posted by Rich Johnson

mkat:

Did you plane against the grain with your #4?? What bevel/honing angle did you use???

Rich, as Peter and Outback have pointed out above, it is a different type of wood your using than I thought - sorry about that. With the tassie oak board I had, it doesn't matter whether I plain against the grain or not (30 degree angle) - still smooth. I used both a stanley #4 and mujifang, but the mujifang produced a smoother surface (need to tune the #4 a bit).

Ryan wrote:

I highly reccomend a LV LA jack with an extra High bevel angle blade.

I would not recommend the LA Jack as a dedicated smoother. That it can do a great job of smoothing a panel is not in question. But it requires that a wider area is smoothed flat in order to do this. A true smoothing plane is actually quite short for a good reason. For example, I have a coffin smoother that is just 7" long. The shorter plane is better able to follow the changes of the surface of the timber, and so remove less of this surface. As a smoother, either the LA or the BU will be better suited. As a general all rounder, the LA Jack is terrific. You must decide what is your priority.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I would not recommend the LA Jack as a dedicated smoother.
Regards from Perth

Derek

sorry, i meant low angle somoother.

Originally Posted by outback

To answer your query however, a blade sharpened to a particualrly acute angle will cut superbly, but will be damaged easily. Conversly a blade sharpened to a less acute angle may hold its edge better but won't "cut" as well. My own opinion, backed up with no data whatsoever, is that if the angle is increased too far even this "edge holding" pay off diminishes. How long does the HNT blade last when in "scraper mode"?

Here's a question. won't a blade sharpened at 48deg. and bedded at 12deg.(bevel up) cut equally as well and last longer than a blade sharpened at 25deg. and bedded at 60deg.(bevel down)?

My guess is that if we could anylyse the cutting angle of lots of things, knives, chisels, planes etc, I reckon the mean would be around 25-30 degrees

actually i think most knives are sharpened at 40deg. (a 20 degree bevel on each side.)

and don't underestimate your 2c I value your opinion (and jokes )

To save everyone's arm hair, fingernails and jugular arteries(bloody hell fruitkernel :eek a bic (or similar) pen will do the same. Rub the edge gently along the pen's surface at about 45 deg (or 38.5, or 53 - whatever blows ya hair back). If it catches it's hair splittin' sharp. If it glides over, it's not. Try it.

Here's a question. won't a blade sharpened at 48deg. and bedded at 12deg.(bevel up) cut equally as well and last longer than a blade sharpened at 25deg. and bedded at 60deg.(bevel down)?

Ryan

This is a provoking question, one that I have been mulling over for some time now, and more so since using high angle bevel up planes.

The answer must take in the fact that the more acute angled blade has greater penetration. e.g. compare an equally "sharp" paring chisel with a 20 degree bevel with a mortice chisel set at 35 degrees. Which one is easier to push into timber? Obvious.

It is possible to keep increasing the bevel angle until you get a square tip. This is not sharp. Similarly, a 48 degree bevel will not feel as sharp as a 25 degree bevel. Remove the tip of the bevel (through wear while planing) and the 25 degree bevel begins to act like the 48 degree bevel.

Another example: Take a HNT Gordon smoother (60 degree bed and 30 degree bevel) and reverse the blade so that you have a scraper plane (now 90 degree bevel). How long does the blade retain its edge. Answer - not as long as when you used it in plane mode.

I think that the downside of bevel up high angle planes is that they will not hold an edge as long as a high angle bevel down plane. I say this speculatively since I have not tested it formally. At some time I will do so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I would not recommend the LA Jack as a dedicated smoother. That it can do a great job of smoothing a panel is not in question. But it requires that a wider area is smoothed flat in order to do this. A true smoothing plane is actually quite short for a good reason. The shorter plane is better able to follow the changes of the surface of the timber, and so remove less of this surface.

Derek
What you say is the conventional wisdom and may undoubtly be true for boards which have been dimensioned by hand. However, since the advent of affordable electric machinery, wood workers fall into three broad categories — those who work almost entirely by hand to enjoy the process of making, those who concentrate on the finished product and almost exclusively use power tools to speed the making process, and those in between who at the very least will use a power tool to dimension their stock.

In regards to the latter, I'm not sure that your statement about needing a short smoothing plane is correct. After passing though the jointer and thicknesser, a board will be FLAT.* The maker will then reach for a smoother (or the sander) to remove the machine marks. In this situation blade width, plane mass, mouth opening and effective cutting angle, are the important criteria, with plane length largely irrelevant. This then leads to my conclusion that for many (most?) users, a LA jack will be a much better option than the LA (or BU) smoother.

ian
(who has both a LA smoother and a LA jack)



* of course, I'm assuming the person using the jointer and thicknesser knows what they're doing and doesn't produce evenly thicknessed banana boards.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

...the more acute angled blade has greater penetration. e.g. compare an equally "sharp" paring chisel with a 20 degree bevel with a mortice chisel set at 35 degrees. Which one is easier to push into timber? Obvious.

Surely not so. Unlike a chisel, with a plane the timber "sees" the effective cutting angle. For a bevel down blade this is set by the angle of the frog (plus any back bevel on the blade). The sharpening angle is about having the cutting edge and not the heel contact the timber. There's an issue here about the relief angle, but it's too close to bed time to chase that down now ;-)

It is possible to keep increasing the bevel angle until you get a square tip. This is not sharp.

this can be very sharp! but the more important issue is maintaining a relief angle.

Similarly, a 48 degree bevel will not feel as sharp as a 25 degree bevel. Remove the tip of the bevel (through wear while planing) and the 25 degree bevel begins to act like the 48 degree bevel.

There's two different effects here. The 48 deg bevel will experience greater cutting resistance and will be harder to push through the timber. As the 25 deg bevel wears it becomes rounded and hence not as sharp so it becomes harder to push.

Another example: Take a HNT Gordon smoother (60 degree bed and 30 degree bevel) and reverse the blade so that you have a scraper plane (now 90 degree bevel). How long does the blade retain its edge. Answer - not as long as when you used it in plane mode.

thinking about the geometry, at 90 deg, the cutting resistance acts at right angles to the blade and you're relying on the bending strength of the individual crystals within the steel to resist it. At 60 deg you still have a component of the force acting along the blade. This, I suggest, is the reason the edge doesn't last as long.

I think that the downside of bevel up high angle planes is that they will not hold an edge as long as a high angle bevel down plane. I say this speculatively since I have not tested it formally.

I've haven't done any formal testing, but my limited experience is a BU blade will hold an edge at least as well as a BD plane.
To my mind the downside of the BU design is the difficulty of sharpening the blade free hand. With the BD design, it is the back of the blade that forms the cutting wedge, and any slight rolling or rocking as the bevel is honed has little influence on the plane's performance. With the BU design, it becomes critical to achieve a consistent bevel, as any imperfections will affect how well the plane performs. It was the advent of jigs like the LV Mk1, that has made BU planes accessible to all.

ian
where it's now tomorrow

for many (most?) users, a LA jack will be a much better option than the LA (or BU) smoother.

ian
(who has both a LA smoother and a LA jack)

Ian

I am not sure that there is any issue to debate here since, as you point out, you are referring to smoothing an already (machined) flat panel, and I was not. The LA Jack is a terrific plane and makes a terrific smoother for large panels. More technically, it should be classified as a panel plane, which was the cabinetmakers of old's choice for smoothing panels.

For interest you may want to read http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/h...mes;read=60316 (Hey, do you think that Rob Lee took my recommendation for a name here?).

I love my LV LA Jack (and have two LA Jacks, a LV and an original Stanley), but I find it too large and too heavy for smaller boards. As I said earlier, "I would not recommend the LA Jack as a dedicated smoother". Rather, it is a specialised Jack plane (or Panel Plane) that can function as a smoother and as a short jointer.

I have several dedicated smoothers. The LV LA Smoother is one of my favourites. It is light and perfect for smaller areas. My current favourite is the new LV Bevel Up (BU) smoother. This is in between the LA smoother and LA Jack in size. Perfect for medium to large sections.

I do not believe that one can say that there is a one-size-fits-all smoother. Even machined boards are not necessary large. Ask Wood Borer if he will ditch his LN #2. Similarly, there are times when I will use a Stanley #18 block plane with a 60 degree cutting angle. It is all horses for courses.

With regard to your second post about blade angles and sharpness, I think that I will first let others have a go before responding myself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Ryan

This is a provoking question, one that I have been mulling over for some time now, and more so since using high angle bevel up planes.

The answer must take in the fact that the more acute angled blade has greater penetration. e.g. compare an equally "sharp" paring chisel with a 20 degree bevel with a mortice chisel set at 35 degrees. Which one is easier to push into timber? Obvious.

I think that the downside of bevel up high angle planes is that they will not hold an edge as long as a high angle bevel down plane. I say this speculatively since I have not tested it formally. At some time I will do so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The effective cutting angle on a bevel down plane is the bed angle, regardless of bevel angle. so why do we insist on sharpenig the blade at 25-30deg? maybe this is what you mean by penetration and is Outback's point.

my simple mind however can't see the difference of cutting ability when the cutting angle is always 60deg regardless of how the blade is flipped. and if the cutting angle is consistent (in our hypothetical comparrison between hnt gordon smoother, and LV LA smoother with 48deg blade), won't the blade with a larger bevel angle last longer?

and another question. would changing the bevel angle on your hnt gordon smoother to 50 degrees (assuming you never scraped with it) change the cutting qualities at all. would the blade stay sharper longer?

:confused:

-Ryan