Thread: Which Smoothing Plane in Reversing Oak Grain

is it highly figured grain, or does it just reverse once or twice? in my experience, a bevel up plane with a high angle blade (48deg) and adjustable mouth closed very tight eliminates tearout on the most figured woods and leaves a smoother surface than the scraper plane.

about your purchase dilema, just buy 'em all. they're all great and you'll never regret it.

welcome Rich, we have some hard curly and reversing grained timber here in Oz and I've found an HNT Gordon plane brilliant on wild grain because the 60deg bevel cuts well and then by reversing the blade you get a 90deg scraper plane to finish off. I believe the planes are available in the States, Fletty

Welcome aboard Rich. You have come to the right place to ask about difficult grain. Down Under we don't reckon a piece of timber is worth mucking around with unless the grain runs in at least 18 different directions at once.

I can't comment on the Hong Kong plane to which you refer, whilst the HNT may look similar, I believe their perfomance far outranks any similar looking plane. HNT Gordon come with a high recomendation, as Flety pointed out, they are available in the USA.

A Veritas LA smoother, with the optional HA blade will give a York pitch, along with its adjustable mouth, may give a little flexibility in the future.

If you are only doing a small piece, how about the good old card scraper? If, however, you are looking larger scale, as it appears I'd go with the HNT Gordon............or maybe the LV LA Smoother. :confused:

I have had very limited success with in reversing oak grain. Basically, I get tear-out, no matter what I try. I have tried changing the bevel/honing angles and I have tried back-bevels - no success. I have a #80 scraper that works well against the oak grain - no problems. But, if I can locate a non-scraper plane that is guaranteed to work directly against the grain in oak, I would prefer that.
I empathise, particularly if it is Tassie oak. When it tears out it does it spectacularly! And the reverse grain is always lurking.

I have had some reasonable success with a normal block plane (an old #19) sharpened to 30+ degrees and with the mouth closed right down. The surface still ends up a bit rough to feel, but not too bad and quickly sorted out with a scraper. I suspect that no conventional smoother is likely to succeed, regadless of sharpness or mouth. Based on my experience, one of the new breed of bevel-up smoothers would have to be the way to go.

It will be interesting to see others' experiences as I am inclined to Tas oak, even with its frustrating reverse grain

Regards
PB

I haven't really had much experience with using tassie oak, just a small board that I had lying around. I thicknessed it with a #40, then used a #4 to smooth with no tear out. It came up smooth, looked ok to me. Then again, I read somewhere that tassie oak is a generic name for a number of different species, and maybe the piece I used wasn't a good indication since it wasn't that big.

I'm guessin' as Rich is in Des Moines, Iowa, that he's troubled by another Oak species (as in "mighty oaks from little acorns grow")and not our venerable tas Oak (Eucalyptus variousness).

[QUOTE=outback]I'm guessin' as Rich is in Des Moines, Iowa, that he's troubled by another Oak species (as in "mighty oaks from little acorns grow")and not our venerable tas Oak (Eucalyptus variousness).[/QUOTE]

I spotted the geographical reference only after I had responded. Feeling a bit of a goose, I retreated to the shop/shed where I knew I had a bit of American oak. It has some tricky reverse grain. I tried my block plane (virtually a York pitch smoother now that the bevel is 30 degrees) against the grain. It did not work too well - not bad, but not good. Still, useful for shifting a little material before using a scraper. No serious tearout but a little roughness.

So I conclude that my solution may be worth a try while coming to terms with buying a nice Lee Valley or Lie Nielson bevel up smoother.

regards again
PB

What Ryan there said. Bevel up something with a thick blade. Grind the blade to at least 38 degrees (to get the effective cutting angle above 50 degrees) and close the mouth right down, take very VERY thin cuts. Make sure the blade is very sharp too. Even with that higher angle, should still shave dry hair without a problem, or whatever test you do to check how sharp your sharp is.

I use my little LV LA block with a 40 something degree bevel and with the mouth closed up, never tears out. Not as polished as with the grain and a lower angle though.

A well tuned and driven scraper should also work fine.

Can you tell I have used a bit of oak recently?

Thanks guys for your assistance!!!

ryanarcher:

1)The grain is not higly figured, it just reverses like once but once is all it takes and I can't necessarily predict when it changes.

2) If I could buy them all, I wouldn't need you guys (heeheehee!!!).

3) Does the hand plane leave a smoother surface than the scraper?? I think when I was first starting out I definitely noticed a difference in smoothness between the scraper and regular plane. However, when I honed the scraper just like a plane blade, things got a lot closer.

fletty, outback:

I'm sure the Gordon planes are very good but my suspicion is that the Mujingfang (Hong Kong) planes ($45 US) are as good or better. I have read and heard good things about their high angle smoother.
See High Angle Plane Tests:
Lyn Mangimeli -
http://www.estimatortools.us/LJM/hiangle.htm

mkat:

Did you plane against the grain with your #4?? What bevel/honing angle did you use???

Schtoo:
You mentioned:
"I use my little LV LA block with a 40 something degree bevel and with the mouth closed up, never tears out. Not as polished as with the grain and a lower angle though."

Ahhh, there's always a give and take. This is good to know.... Makes sense... This is the kind of thing I saw when I put a back-bevel on the blade for the #4.

Thanks guys!!!!

My lean is more towards either the high angle hong kong plane (if nothing else it only costs $45 bucks) or the 112 scraping plane.

Rich

Originally Posted by Rich Johnson

I'm sure the Gordon planes are very good but my suspicion is that the Mujingfang (Hong Kong) planes ($45 US) are as good or better.

Rich,

The Gordon planes beat the Muji's hands down. Muji's are great planes but the Gordons are in a class of their own, miles above the Muji's. The Gordon's are world class.

No matter which way you go, make sure the plane is razor sharp because a blunt plane is next to useless no matter who made it, no matter how flat the sole is etc.

Good luck with your project.

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Make sure the blade is very sharp too. Even with that higher angle, should still shave dry hair without a problem, or whatever test you do to check how sharp your sharp is.

No,,,mate I reakon its gotta shave thicker than hair......I don't use a blade unless I can shave with it......I've got a mirror right in front of my stones and I just run it up my neck under my jaw to test it.....saves shaving latter as well......but scares the crap out of the chooks......poor things

Rich, Now I'm with you, Hong Kong = Muji, damn fine plane by all accounts. But, read what wood borer said, I agree totally. HNT are the ducks guts.

Whilst I reckon bevel up planes are great, to me they are a compromise when talking about this specific problem. I believe that for really difficult to plane wood, a higher bed angle combined with an optimum blade bevel, as in the HNT, with an effective 60 degree cutting angle, will surpass a bevel up plane with its 12 degree bed and 38, 40, or whatever blade angle. These are not the ideal angles to sharpen a cutting blade at.

The beauty of the LA range of planes is their ability to be adapted from a york pitch, which is Ok on hard to plane timber, to a true low angle, great for end grain.


Well, that's my story anyhow. No doubt others will disagree, but remember, my favourite plane at the moment is my LV LA Jack.

Hey, we got some funny guys here, I like it... You'd never get this at an American site.

apricotripper, you don't really have a mirror in front of your stones, do you (???).

I went back to the garage to perform some more tests. For the buzzionth time, I re-sharpened my #4 Stanley and made sure that it was sharp (sometimes I think I really don't know what sharp is, but I won't be shaving with any of my blades, either). It did an okay job against the grain - still got some tear-out, though.

Interestingly, I went back to the #80 scraper and honed the blade for it and put a burr on it. It didn't do a very good job this time - I think it has worked better in the past. But, I did notice that the blade was chipped quite a bit. I think its a little too old and brittle. I then took an old Stanley blade that I had sharpened before. It must have still been fairly sharp and put a burr on it and put in the #80 and it worked fantastic!!! The oak board that I was using was very smooth (nice!!!).

I may have answered my own question. I think I'm leaning towards the 112 scraper (at least for now), thereby I don't have to worry at all about tear-out.

Hi Wood Borer:

I'm just curious, have you tried the Muji High Angle planes and compared them to the Gordon planes. Or, do you have a site that has tested the Gordon planes? I would like to see it. I have seen some very positive reports on the internet of the Gordon planes but no head to head comparisons with other planes. What makes them so much better??

Thanks again guys!!!

Rich

Part of it is the finish. The HNT's are much better made, the wood used is nicer and the finishe is simply 'better'. As for performance, well I've only got the tiny muji smoother, and it's bloody brilliant. Bear in mind though that sharpening a HSS blade is a bit arduous, especially if the back requires a lot of lapping. My HNT blade was basically flat out of the box, the Muji on the other hand..........................