Thread: ThumbSuckers Blades IRL !

There could possibly be a manufacturing defect somwhere.

I could suggest a scientific approach of taking a look at a good number of planes and seeing how they average out - and where a mid point may be - or just make the things 10 mm longer and let the user file to fit. Which ever way you go it won't fit someones plane.

Getting lots and lots may not be that important if there's not too much variation though. However there is likely to be some variation as there always is, and has shown up as confirmation that ''some chip breakers seem to be a bit short''. These may be some of the planes which are a bit out of the ordinary - that may have a ''Manufactuing defect'' and could possibly be considered outliers. Thats when some judgement needs to come into play. These plane were also made in countless factories each likely to turn out coutless variations on the theme. So, in order to cater for everyone including the outliers, its a "make it longer" and file to fit approach may be needed.

I could do more measuring but, I dug out the measurements I did last September (yes I still have it) or when ever it was done mid/late last year. Measurements are all in millimetres for a range of old and new Stanley plane cap irons ''critical dimension'' for a:
#3 - 92.08, 89.9, 90.0, 89.4
#4/5 - 95.25, 92.8, 92.9
#6/7 - 92.08, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3

Note that the wider and larger the plane the general trend is for an increase in dimension (ie one size will not fit all).

I don't recall if the final dimensions used to make the cap irons were a one size fits all approach or if the smaller plane sizes catered for. THis is complicating it however as a one size fits all approach I think will run into trouble unless they (like you suggest, TS) are made longer and left for the user do the fitting.


Regards,
Steve

Had another play with the No4 today and knocked up a marking knife. I didn't measure how much more the chip breaker needed on it, I will check tomorrow and post but I think it was 4-5mm. I put the copper shim in and I lost all the slop in the adjustment but it didn't (at least not noticably) change the position of the chip breaker. I then tidied up one of the legs on this coffee table and then took to the end grain of the tenon, beautiful to use. The marking knife is African Ebony spun down in the lathe, a copper onion for a ferral (too keen to wait to get a brass ferral) slightly fashioned from my Chris V but much finer, I find Chris's a little clunky sometimes. Sorry Chris (mostly I love it,grovel) I will make another knife soon I have another design floating around in my head. The steel feels great both on the plane blade and the knife edges. Well done guys. A happy customer

Great looking marking knife, that African Ebony is lovely. I have ground mine, but have not gotten to making a handle for them yet.

We have a pattern. Based on Slow6, and ZSteve's numbers.

• #3 - 89, 92.08, 89.9, 90.0, 89.4 - Average == 90.076 mm
• #4 - 91.5, 95.25, 92.8, 92.9 - Average == 93.1125 mm
• #4 1/2 - 95 - Average == 95 mm
• #5 - 91, 95.25, 92.8, 92.9 - Average == 92.2375 mm
• #5 1/4 - 89.5 - Average == 89.5 mm
• #5 1/2 - 96 - Average == 96 mm
• #6 - 96, 92.08, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average == 95.256 mm
• #7 - 95, 92.08, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average == 95.056 mm
• #8 - 101 - Average == 101 mm

Anyone else want to give the plane No. and the "critical distance" in mm.

G'day Guys

I'm currently away on a milling job up near Ballarat and won't be back home till Monday or Tuesday plus I had visitors earlier in the week so I have slipped behind a bit, but will get straight back into it when I get home.

DJ

I've only had a chance to grind a 1 3/4" blade so far, but here is what I've found.

On 2 different Stanley 3's, had the same problem reported earlier with the screw head being too big for the recess in the frog, also cap iron too long for the 3. Both easily fixed, so no dramas.

Tried the same blade & iron (without modification) on a 5 1/4. The screw seems to just fit the frog, the cap iron OK, but the mouth needs opening slightly. Again, easily fixed.

Then for interest I tried them with a Sargent 408, and found the slot in the blade is too narrow for the lateral adjuster. Not so easy to fix, although if I was determined to use the new blade on this plane I suppose I could swap over the lateral adjuster with one from a Stanley.

Not really a problem because from the beginning these were meant to be for Stanleys, but thought I'd mention it in case anyone has Sargents and was thinking of getting into the next order. This is the only Sargent bench plane I have so don't know if the problem affects all their planes or just the 408.

Hoping to get a couple more blades prepared this weekend, and will report what I find.

Have measured my No 4, measurement a: 101.52 to the edge of the blade. I nomaly have my chip breaker back about 1mm from the blade so I would like 100.5, I am running an odd combo at the moment where I have an old frog 1930s maybe with a 2004 body so there could also be variations in sole thickness and frog seating. I went with this body with the new blade as the mouth was already big enough don't have to file out the mouth on my other plane, the 2004 frog and adjuster was one of those pressed metal things.

May I throw in a dumb question here.......he says expectantly.

I have been playing around with the new blade in a #6 both with the replacement cap iron and with the original cap iron/chip breaker set to I think a fairly standard position back from the cutting edge.

Anyway as I said in a previous post I am unable to detect any performance difference.

So the question is what exactly is the chip breakers function is it as the name suggest to aid in clearly the mouth or is it to reduce chatter.

I submit that with the thick blade the chip breakers function may well be redundant and therefore the dimension for future replacements is perhaps merely for aesthetics.

Cheers
Mike

m2c1Iw, their has been lots of discussion of the cap iron/chip breaker. Rob Lee has weighted in on the discussion.

The view is, low angle planes, Japanese planes, HNT Gordon Planes, and many other planes do not have cap irons/chip breakers, yet they have no problem chipping the shaving or ejecting the shaving. The whole chip breaker name is a misnomer that is best forgotten. Most of these planes have thicker blades or use a Norris style adjuster.

The cap iron/chip breaker serves two functions.

The most important and undisputed function is to create an interface between the blade and the plane. To allow the Stanley Bailey adjustment wheel, and the lateral adjustment to effect the blades position. That is why planes that have a Norri's adjuster generally do not have a cap iron.

Its second function is that the cap iron stiffens the blade. Their is some debate about if the cap iron in-fact does do this. Derek Cohen says it does, so does Lie-Nielsen. If one is taking gossamer shavings aiming for a glass like finish. I am inclined to accept this view that the cap iron will have some effect. Since it is generally accepted that the thicker the blade, the less chatter the blade will experience. Therefor the cap iron serves dampen the vibration within the blade, giving you a better finish.


switt775 I have sent you a PM.

Keep us informed.

Originally Posted by switt775

Hoping to get a couple more blades prepared this weekend, and will report what I find.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Great looking marking knife, that African Ebony is lovely. I have ground mine, but have not gotten to making a handle for them yet.

We have a pattern. Based on Slow6, and ZSteve's numbers.

• #3 - 89, 92.08, 89.9, 90.0, 89.4 - Average == 90.076 mm
• #4 - 91.5, 95.25, 92.8, 92.9 - Average == 93.1125 mm
• #4 1/2 - 95 - Average == 95 mm
• #5 - 91, 95.25, 92.8, 92.9 - Average == 92.2375 mm
• #5 1/4 - 89.5 - Average == 89.5 mm
• #5 1/2 - 96 - Average == 96 mm
• #6 - 96, 92.08, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average == 95.256 mm
• #7 - 95, 92.08, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average == 95.056 mm
• #8 - 101 - Average == 101 mm

Anyone else want to give the plane No. and the "critical distance" in mm.

My record 8 comes in at 103.5 - I have used it with the original record chipbreaker and the new one with a long gap between tip and chipbreaker and both are better than the original record blade

Neil

My cap iron "a" length needs to be longer than the others recorded, I just checked my original No4 and the a: measurement to the cutting edge of the blade is 98.5 this is a new stanley blade and an old original cap iron. I have set my depth adjustment on a mid position on the thread ie about equal length of thread on both sides of the adjustment know. Original stanley cap iron a: measurement is just shy of 98mm, and I have another the same. b: mesurement 93mm, both.

I probably won't get any more No4s so if my measurements are too far off the scale don't worry about them.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

b: mesurement 93mm, both.

We are interested in the the B measurement only and your 93 is still with in the average for a No.4 "B" or "Critical Dimension" measurement.

Thanks Neil to the measurement for the No. 8.


Based on Slow6, ZSteve's, brontehls, and Claw Hammer's numbers. We are forming a pattern, the critical dimension moves from 92 mm @ 1 3/4", then 95 mm @ 2", then 98 mm for a 2 3/8", then 104 mm for a 2 5/8" blade. The length seems to increase by 3 mm every time the blade jump up one size.

• #3 - 89, 89.9, 90.0, 89.4 - Average = 89.575 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 92 mm)
• #5 1/4 - 89.5 - Average = 89.5 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 92 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
• #4 - 91.5, 92.8, 92.9, 93 - Average = 92.55 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 95 mm)
• #5 - 91, 92.8, 92.9 - Average = 92.23333333333 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 95 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
• #4 1/2 - 95 - Average = 95 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 97 mm)
• #5 1/2 - 96 - Average = 96 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• #6 - 96, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average = 96.05 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• #7 - 95, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average = 95.8 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
• #8 - 101, 103.5 - Average = 102.25 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 104 mm)

Anyone else want to give the plane No. and the "critical distance" in mm.

The 2 mm is added, because 0.5 mm will be lost to grinding the bevel plus 1.5 mm must be added to compensate for the the fact the blades is 1.5 mm thicker then a standard blade.


Canberra BBQ

I have marinated some chicken wings and drumsticks. I have some onions, bread and butter. I have a Turner No. 4 thanks to Luban White. .

See all the Canberra blokes at 12 noon at the ANU.

Can someone bring a camera for some happy snaps?

I have looked over your post and I am quoting you below so not to make an error.

Originally Posted by Slow6

Hi Folks.
so really I can't say anything other than I sharpened it.. but I'm sure it could be sharpererer!

I found a 5 1/4 with a hairline crack in the mouth and chip in the heel.. beauty! .. I ran the plane over some 240 to check for flatness.. it's not!!.. . so.... yep... it's a banana
Oh.. and it's got lots of nasty pitting too

So no special sharpening, and a banana plane? By banana, do you mean it was more than just a few thou out, or it was closer to a boomerang than a plane?

Originally Posted by Slow6

No dramas at all.. the SplittyBox was close to tear free

All the other timbers I'd be happy to put a finish on with no further smoothing, scraping, sanding.

Do you really want us to believe that a banana 5 1/4 with a cracked mouth is going to be capable of producing "finish ready" work? And all you need is a better blade, even if it's hasn't been through a 21 step sharpening process inside a perfectly aligned pyramid?

Thanks for sharing.

Based on Slow6, ZSteve's, brontehls, switt775 and Claw Hammer's numbers. We are forming a pattern, the critical dimension moves from 92 mm @ 1 3/4", then 95 mm @ 2", then 98 mm for a 2 3/8", then 104 mm for a 2 5/8" blade. The length seems to increase by about 3 mm every time the blade jumps up one size.

• #3 - 89, 89.9, 90.0, 89.4, 89.5, 89.5 - Average = 89.55 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 92 mm)
• #5 1/4 - 89.5, 89.5 - Average = 89.5 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 92 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
• #4 - 91.5, 92.8, 92.9, 93 - Average = 92.55 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 95 mm)
• #5 - 91, 92.8, 92.9 - Average = 92.23333333333 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 95 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
• #4 1/2 - 95 - Average = 95 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 97 mm)
• #5 1/2 - 96 - Average = 96 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• #6 - 96, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average = 96.05 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• #7 - 95, 95.7, 96.2, 96.3 - Average = 95.8 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 98 mm)
• ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
• #8 - 101, 103.5 - Average = 102.25 mm (Round up plus 2 mm == 104 mm)

Anyone else want to give the plane No. and the "critical distance" in mm.

The 2 mm is added, because 0.5 mm will be lost to grinding the bevel plus 1.5 mm must be added to compensate for the the fact the blades is 1.5 mm thicker then a standard blade.


Canberra BBQ

Got to catch up with ZSteve and HarryR, had a play fitting the blades, then shared some bbq and conversation, it s always interesting to learn about the people behind the forum name. We will do it again, next time we will bring some cups.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

The marking knife is African Ebony spun down in the lathe, a copper onion for a ferral (too keen to wait to get a brass ferral) slightly fashioned from my Chris V but much finer, <<snip>> I will make another knife soon I have another design floating around in my head. The steel feels great both on the plane blade and the knife edges. Well done guys. A happy customer

Better photos so I can cop.. err... better admire your masterful handy work?

I started and then stopped grinding mine up. Wasn't positively sure how to get a fine bevel/edge on this and didn't want to stuff it up. (in my case it's measure twice and then don't cut until someone else has measured it twice!!)

Funily enough I've found this steel much better to grind than most others I've handled with planes. Slower sure, but then much easier to control as well. (No blood yet, but that'll come , that'll come )