Thread: brazing fuel tank?

I posted some time back on an actual experience I had with fuel tanks. I've copied the text for the post located here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...330#post622330

Years ago, While I was working as a labourer in a Plumbing and Sheetmetal shop. We had a job come in to alter a boats aluminium fuel tank. I got the job of flushing it out. It was left with water flushing it out for hours, and a few wash outs with detergent. I thought it must've been clean as a whistle and the shop foreman agreed. So he put it on his workbench and decided to strike an arc with this TIG torch on the filler neck just to check for a start.

Well BOOM, it flew a good 6 metres up through the air bounced off the roof (after denting it) and came back down and hit him on his shoulder. The explosion smashed half a dozen windows in the workshop and made a dust storm that you nearly couldn't see through (dust in the right concentration with air is a explosion hazard in itself).

The Foreman was ok besides a sore shoulder and ringing in his ears (all of ours were too). Mind you, he was half deaf from years of sheetmetal work. The fuel tank was a write off, and looked more like a half peeled banana and was built totally anew.

It was scary stuff, though once the dust cleared and found everyone was ok, we laughed a bit about it. To this day there is still a reminder of the incident, above this bench, the dent in the roof.
We all learnt a lesson, big time.

I, like many others, use a saw bench and jointer every day and often without the guard (when planing full width boards), yet I have a full compliment of digits. I know numerous blokes in the woodworking trade, half my age, with one or more phalanges missing.

To quote Forrset Gump "Stupid is as stupid does".

Repairing fuel tanks is as common as having lunch, done with the proper safety precautions it is quite safe, I have seen many fuel tanks welded and bronze welded , without a single accident. The same as anything you do if you follow correct procedure it is quite safe

Originally Posted by China

Repairing fuel tanks is as common as having lunch, done with the proper safety precautions it is quite safe, I have seen many fuel tanks welded and bronze welded , without a single accident. The same as anything you do if you follow correct procedure it is quite safe

"Common as having lunch", i would have thought so considering how many fuel tanks there must be in the country .Every day many must be developing leaks .Just a matter of someone replying to this thread that repairs fuel tanks on a regular basis and can give a few tips .

I,ve made a few pot belly stoves etc welded up from LPG cylinders with no probs , but with pot bellies them having a totally non-porous weld is not so important.

Thats why I was after a few tips on getting the weld/braze /solder or whatever join totally non-porous

A few years ago someone I knew found a Model A Ford which he decided to restore. It had been in a paddock for over 40 years without fuel in the tank and with no cap on the tank.

When he got to the tank to fix it, he first put in it a hand full of 1/4 steel nuts and shook them around with water to loosen any rust. This tank wast rusty inside and out.

When he had finished he found some small rust holes he elected to weld the tank thinking being empty for so long out in the hot open outback petrol would be long gone.

He put the oxy flame at one of the rust holes - it exploded - luckily it went the opposite way to where he was standing. it split open and wrecked the tank.

Originally Posted by durwood

It had been in a paddock for over 40 years without fuel in the tank and with no cap on the tank.

I would have thought that after 40 years any left over fuel would have gone completely off especially with the cap off and the vapours would have easily escaped. Sounds like one of those urban legend things.

Wouldn't surprise me if someone tried to use the tank recently and realise it had holes and just dumped it before your make came across it.

Originally Posted by durwood

A few years ago someone I knew found a Model A Ford which he decided to restore. It had been in a paddock for over 40 years without fuel in the tank and with no cap on the tank.

When he got to the tank to fix it, he first put in it a hand full of 1/4 steel nuts and shook them around with water to loosen any rust. This tank wast rusty inside and out.

When he had finished he found some small rust holes he elected to weld the tank thinking being empty for so long out in the hot open outback petrol would be long gone.

He put the oxy flame at one of the rust holes - it exploded - luckily it went the opposite way to where he was standing. it split open and wrecked the tank.

See, my Nigerian mates were right. It needs to be full of fuel!

My husband has welded up fuel tanks in the past due to rust and damage. He then takes them the local airport where there is a small plane repairer. They put a yellow liquid inside the tank that is used on aircraft fuel tanks to seal them and prevent erosion. It was swirled around and the excess tipped out. This was succesful in all cases. Sorry I dont know what the liquid is but if you are near a airport they may be able to help.

hi there mat, i felt a cold wave of horror going through me when i read these posts about what risks some people would take just to save a few quick dollars. Obviously, fuel tanks can and ARE repairable in instances - BUT and the whole point of this is - GET SOMEONE TO DO IT WHO KNOWS HOW TO DO IT SAFELY!!!.
For god's sakes - dont go trying to weld things up where are potential explosive fuel sources in the immediate vicinity - it is a real recipe for disaster. There is no coming back from this saying - maybe i shouldnt have done that - the results of what you are trying to do could have potentially fatal consequences in a horrific way.

I feel very strongly about this because I have personally have had to nurse a young child who found a very old rusted out petrol container in a paddock - no lid on it - had been out there for years and put a lit match into it out of curiousity to see if could find any redback spiders into it - and it exploded on him. The child not only had flash burns from the petrol vapour but also imbedded metal in his face which required surgery to remove.

Thing is - taking extremely dangerous risks like this just isnt about you - its about your family and the traumatising effects it will have on them, its about the damage that you will cause and you may well not be covered by insurance either for this if it (literally) backfires on you, plus the fact that there is a real risk you may not survive it.

Dont let the phrase 'I thought it would be ok' be the epitaph on your headstone. NOt trying to sound harsh here - but DONT BE STUPID! - your life is worth more than a friggin landcruiser petrol tank!. Get a professional to repair it for you - and go in and watch how they do it - that way you can learn/observe safely.

Just concerned for you Mat.
cheers
woodmama

Originally Posted by woodmama

hi there mat, i felt a cold wave of horror going through me when i read these posts about what risks some people would take just to save a few quick dollars.

Well it is a forum for dyi'er when all is said and done. You have to learn somewhere and that is what these threads are for, to find someone who does this for a living or knows what's involved in doing it properly.

If we all adopted the attitude of "get a professional in" then these forums would cease to exist. A prime example is your foray into welders. These devices can be quite lethal wrt to shocks, eye damage etc if not used correctly yet you are heading off to buy one soon. If you where to take your own advice are you fit to own a potentially lethal welding machine given the basic questions you are asking? Please don't take this as personal attack or anything but it was the easiest example that I thought you could relate to. Ideally you'd hire a professional welder and be done with it right? The trick is to spend time to gather as much info from as many sources and using some common sense before heading off and doing anything. Admittedly some people lack common sense but I assume if they made it this far and are asking questions then they should have some.

montiee, i think you have completely missed the point of what i was trying to say - i'm not against diy'ers at all - if i was - i wouldnt be here. what concerns me is that i have been witness to what happens when things DO go wrong. If mat was talking about welding up a tank that had never contained a known explosive liquid in it e.g a water tank - then we simply wouldnt be having this conversation as he wouldnt be facing the potential disastrous consequences that could happen. it could be the same tank - but for 2 different purposes - and they would have to be approached differently because of the risks they pose. Thats all I'm saying. This is not fiction we are talking about - some of us have witnessed real life examples of what CAN potentially happen.

Yes I am asking basic questions because I am a total novice, I am in the process of finding out what works or is helpful from other welding users as this helps inform me but ultimately the decision with what risks I take is up to me. I have complete respect for the enormous dangerous risks that welding can have, I have learnt a lot from people who have already been there and done that. I certainly dont intend to attempt welding without some professional instruction - i'm just sizing up at the momemnt whats around and getting info.

What I said in my previous post is my opinion and my experiences. I dont think a 'one size fits all' approach is either helpful or useful - my concern is the safety issue. Everything carries risks - and yes if I was to just go out today, buy a welder come home plug it in and off I go, I dont even think I'd want to be in the same space as myself - I sure as hell wouldnt be safe because I wouldnt even have the rudimentarty basics to go with it . Thats why I plan NOT to do it that way and get some good instruction to give myself, the machine and my family the respect they deserve. I'm sorry if I created confusion in my earlier post - just wanted to clear it up

Hi ,
I believe that a few people are missing what I believe to be an important point.

When some one posts about obviously dangerous activities they do bear a responsibility to those people who may read their post ,and for one reason or another take an action which leads from to injury.

In training people over many years I know the all the ways one can damage oneself while welding cutting and and fabrication.

There are things that I can do BUT will never post here for that very reason.

If there's a better than average risk I will always err on the conservative side in advising people .

I don't know what others think but I could not live with myself if I gave advice that some one used and badly hurt themselves due to an omission on my part.
It sounds like woodmama is a nurse or in the medical profession(and god bless you for that-my little girl is one as well)

People like woodmama and my girl see the results of people who thought they knew what they were doing and its not pretty.

Between us, if we can change the mind of just one person who will rethink their position on this and similar type posts its a good thing.
with that I shall climb off my soapbox.

GRAHAME

Originally Posted by woodmama

montiee, i think you have completely missed the point of what i was trying to say - i'm not against diy'ers at all - if i was - i wouldnt be here. what concerns me is that i have been witness to what happens when things DO go wrong.

I understood perfectly well what you were getting at. Unfortunately you missed my point completely. Simply put picking up a welding unit in the first place can probably kill you just as quick if you don't know to use the earth clamps and stay away from the pointy end as well as know about using protective clothing etc. I wonder how many uncles are hanging around the welder while there nephews does a spot of welding for them on the gate or whatever and have pacemakers for eg.. You don't even need to be using the unit to be in danger in some cases...

Common sense tells you that fuel is combustible so I'm sure he is investigating ways to mitigate it otherwise he would of already started welding it without posting. It's just that in this forum repairing tanks doesn't seem to be common place so it's a big deal (rightly so but perspective may be skewed more in the ZOMG category) over general welding. Operating a welder by comparison seems like a simple task when it's just as lethal if done incorrectly. Same with operation of angle grinders in metal working etc. I wasn't having a go at your beginner status because I am one as well. I was just pointing out that you have decided to buy and use a machine that could potentially kill you if you don't operate it correctly just like a problem with his tank if not handled could be equally disasterous.

I reckon the guy should visit a more automtive specific forums if he hasn't done so already and check out liquid solutions (as one poster her suggested with the airplane stuff) to mitigate the risks. Know the risks, ask the questions on how to minimise each of the risk and take your time.

I had the same reaction from people when I first changed the brakes myself on my car for the first time in 15 years. People where going on about how unsafe it was and how I should take it into a pro etc etc. I've been changing my brakes (drum/disc) for over 15 years now on numerous vehicles from motorbikes to station wagons etc replacing pads/drums/master cyclinders + bleeding lines etc and not a problem. At the time it was predicted that I would have an accident fom brake failure..

Everything has it's risk but life is like that. If we took the worst case scenario as guaranteed to happen I would never ever cross the street let alone get out of bed. At the end of the day the guy needs to evaluate the info he has and whether he thinks he is capable to do it safely. Perhaps the knowledge isn't in this forum for this topic. It doesn't seem to be from my view. He just needs to seek out a place that does have it (eg car restoration forums maybe) and if not then sure take it to a pro. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with just washing it out with plain water and letting it dry out for eg.

this is exciting...

what i would like to know is what does mathuranatha now think about what he is going to do...

i hope he has taken everyones opinion on board and made his own corperate ruling on the next recourse of action.....

i wonder if he could please please please let the jury know of your desicion.... then we can move on

so what do you say... are you going to let us know... i do have the drum rolling.

by the way...i almost wet myself with the "thin the herd" comment. sorry that was is in poor taste.

gleN Boulton