Thread: Recommendations for Small Stick Welder

if you keep in mind not to use the welder full tilt. what would be the problem with using the 15amp welder in a 10 amp plug.

Originally Posted by AxelVK

I can't believe that there still people out there that not only does this but also admit to it in a public forum.

Originally Posted by azzrock

if you keep in mind not to use the welder full tilt. what would be the problem with using the 15amp welder in a 10 amp plug.

That may work. But what small stick welder could you use at less than full song and still achieve good penetration at say 6-8 mm?

Originally Posted by AxelVK

That may work. But what small stick welder could you use at less than full song and still achieve good penetration at say 6-8 mm?

It depends on what electrode size you are using.
Penetration has more to do with joint access than outright power. Welding 6-8mm at full penetration requires the use of a single vee prep or similar no matter what amperage you run, (submerged arc welding excluded).
From memory an inverter welder with a 10A plug are usually rated up to around 130A. That will really cook along with a 3.2mm electrode and even a 4mm would run. I have personally run 4mm E4818 electrodes down to 90A using DCEP when doing certain positional work
Running 3.2mm electrodes on 6-8mm will weld the joint quicker and with less passes than 2.5's but the resultant joint will be just as strong no matter which size is used, in fact when welding to code, 2.5mm electrodes are very often used for the root pass due to the superior control and access to the root gap offered by their more compact dimensions.
As a point of interest the specs below are for the Cigweld Transarc 141VRD and 161VRD welders respectively. They both specify the same size wire fuse despite the difference in their capacities. Leaving legalities aside, I would find it highly improbable that the larger unit would damage a 10A power circuit given that the same size fuse is specified.

Recommended Wire Fuse Size 16 Amp Wire Fuse
Recommended Power Point 10 Amp Power Point
Maximum kVA at Rated MMAW Weld Current 2.4
120A @ 18% Duty Cycle 140A @ 35% Duty Cycle

Recommended Wire Fuse Size 16 Amp Wire Fuse
Recommended Power Point 15 Amp Power Point
Maximum kVA at Rated MMAW Weld Current 3.6
120A @ 42% Duty Cycle
160A @ 50% Duty Cycle

Small stick welder question turns into debate about filing down earth pins on 15 amp plugs and making adaptors....... again!!

Of course it is always more convenient just plug your welder in and go for it. However, have you considered getting yourself a engine driven welder or a genset with welder output? You don't have to muck about with 15 amp sockets, you will get better weld current, and you can run your beer fridge off it during power outages, which will become more common as foreign owned utility companies siphon more money from failing electricity infrastructure.

Yes there are laws out there which are meant to make it safer by preventing unqualified persons from wiring power points. Unions such as the ETU have had too much influence on regulation and have even tried to make supply of power points and plug tops from Bunnings etc. illegal to the general public and you could only buy these things by showing your electrician's credentials.

At the same time that electricians have been given all this power (pardon the pun) government regulation and testing of electricians is very slack indeed. Recently I witnessed a house relocated (in two halves) which was given a Certificate of Electrical Safety with only one working batten holder and five out of ten power points not working. This was a house that was originally designed to be transported and had common connection points to join the two halves electrically. Needless to say the new owners soon cracked it when they discovered the problem was bare, live wires floating around in the common wall and ceiling which hadn't been connected back into the junction boxes. They fixed it themselves. They complained about the electrician to the Chief Electrical Inspector who of course did nothing. On the grapevine this is not the first time this 'sparky' has done this.

My usual course is to run the cables, dig the trenches, make the holes in the plaster etc if I want electrical work done. Then the sparky only has to strip a few wires and tighten a few screws. This saves money on labour, you can put heavier cables than specification (I usually do- nothing succeeds like excess!) and the sparky is a lot less likely to stuff it up.

The situation in Australia is over-regulation where it is technically illegal to even back off the screws on a power point to paint around it, and yet government departments are paper tigers that fail to protect consumers from shonks. Common sense reigns in other countries such as the UK and US where you can wire your own house but you have to have it signed off by an electrician.

I can't accept authority which is defective. Just because "six months ago I couldn't spell electrician now I are one" doesn't mean you are a protected species. There are a lot of laws and regulations which are simply designed to keep people in a job that shouldn't be there. What is required is better testing and training for existing electricians- say, an exam before they are re-issued with their licence- to keep them abreast of changes in legislation.

However, just because there is a competence vacuum in the electrical trades and government this does not give you a green light to file down an earth pin or make an adaptor. You may have gotten away with it to now, but one day you will get caught- not by the law, but someone will get hurt. Want a 15 amp socket in your shed? Get sufficient 6mm twin and earth cable and run it yourself, nail the clips (no nails through the cable OK?), dig the trenches, make the holes in the wall - all the jobs an apprentice could do. Cover your backside by getting a good sparky to strip the wires and put the breaker in the meter box. You will save money, and it will be done properly.

Generally a good sparky will let you dig trenches and crawl under houses and will tell you how to do it properly because it save them time and effort while you are saving yourself money.

I don't see why an interested person couldn't go to Tafe in the evening and get some form of electrical accreditation.... but that comes down to protectionism again doesn't it? People WILL attempt these things themselves, so why can't they be trained to do it properly?

Good Post GB!

great post. Maybe this is because a lot of great electricians don't work in the wiring houses field.
there keeping our factory's, cranes and elevators working.
you know your can do the NREL national restricted electrical license courses at tafe.that allows you to do some electrical work. ive done it but never bothered to get the license.
aaron

Originally Posted by foccacia

Hi all
I know that this question has been asked before but does anyone have a recommendation for a small stick welder. It will only be welding up to 6mm. I have a small gasless MIG but it spatters. Any positive suggestions would be appreciated.

I wonder is Mr foccacia is still around and I am surprised that none of you grumpy old men has criticized the spelling of his name.

As far as recommending a small stick welder, my suggestion is to buy a large stick welder and a transformer not an inverter.

Small soon turns into ineffective and later into useless as you found out with your MIG welder. Transformer welders are cheap because they are last century technology. yet they work like a charm.
Stay well above 150 AMP possibly 200 AMP and stay clear of Chinese $45 machines.

The debate about 15 amp power points is cute yet counterproductive and mostly ill informed.
A welder needs power in relation to the work to be done. If you have he best machine yet the wiring can not deliver full 240/15 amp you are wasting your time and a 15 amp or a 32 amp outlet will not help unless it is wired to the correct size cable.
Generalizations about the size of the cable does not help either. If the run from the main to the outlet is 20 meters and allowing for 5% voltage drop you get away with 2.5 mm if the cable runs for 50 meters you need 4.5mm ... and I would rather plug into a 10 amp outlet wired to 4.5 cable than in a 20 amp outlet with a 2.5 mm cable.

On that topic I had an interesting experience when I bought my MIG welder. It is a very nice 250 amp unit yet the lead had a simple 15 amp plug and 2.5mm wire. Simple maths told me this to be wrong since the unit needs a 32 amp line to operate at full power.
I contacted the manufacturer who told me that the lead was adequate for medium jobs but that if I required to use it at maximum power I had to rewire the machine with 6mm cable and 32 amp plug. when I protested that I had bought a new unit that could only be used at half speed before melting the lead and that I am not an electrician and a few ephitet on that line, I recieved the best electronic welding helmet I ever owned in the mail as a shut up present.

Originally Posted by Marc

I wonder is Mr foccacia is still around and I am surprised that none of you grumpy old men has criticized the spelling of his name.

As far as recommending a small stick welder, my suggestion is to buy a large stick welder and a transformer not an inverter.

Small soon turns into ineffective and later into useless as you found out with your MIG welder. Transformer welders are cheap because they are last century technology. yet they work like a charm.
Stay well above 150 AMP possibly 200 AMP and stay clear of Chinese $45 machines.

The debate about 15 amp power points is cute yet counterproductive and mostly ill informed.
A welder needs power in relation to the work to be done. If you have he best machine yet the wiring can not deliver full 240/15 amp you are wasting your time and a 15 amp or a 32 amp outlet will not help unless it is wired to the correct size cable.
Generalizations about the size of the cable does not help either. If the run from the main to the outlet is 20 meters and allowing for 5% voltage drop you get away with 2.5 mm if the cable runs for 50 meters you need 4.5mm ... and I would rather plug into a 10 amp outlet wired to 4.5 cable than in a 20 amp outlet with a 2.5 mm cable.

On that topic I had an interesting experience when I bought my MIG welder. It is a very nice 250 amp unit yet the lead had a simple 15 amp plug and 2.5mm wire. Simple maths told me this to be wrong since the unit needs a 32 amp line to operate at full power.
I contacted the manufacturer who told me that the lead was adequate for medium jobs but that if I required to use it at maximum power I had to rewire the machine with 6mm cable and 32 amp plug. when I protested that I had bought a new unit that could only be used at half speed before melting the lead and that I am not an electrician and a few ephitet on that line, I recieved the best electronic welding helmet I ever owned in the mail as a shut up present.

Your comments about power outlets and wiring makes perfect sense. It is simple electrical logic.
My only comment would be re. "rather plug into a 10 amp outlet wired to 4.5 cable" is that from what I've seen, most 10A circuits almost always wired with 2.5 and not being dedicated...well you're smart enough to know about the current load on that circuit.

Interesting about your MIG. All of my 15A devices has 6 mm leads so I cannot claim a freebie helmet.

Originally Posted by BobL

Unfortunately magistrates don't see laws as bent - just broken or unbroken.

Same as the insurance company that you are trying to get to pay out on your burnt down house or shed.

While your local 10 amp wall socket might not feel warm, the 10 amp wall sockets are daisy chained on the way back to the switchboard, the warmest wire will usually be the one between the socket closest to the switchboard and the switchboard, due to other devices plugged in along the chain.

AND, you may not get an immediate problem. Anyone that knows about heat and expansion may be able to relate to the wire, screwed into the socket, will heat up. The screw will stop the wire expanding against it, so the wire will expand sideways. When the wire cools, it cools and retracts in all directions, causing the screw to now be loose. With this loose connection, you'll get arcing and a possible internal wall fire. This loose screw might not be the one at the wall socket. It could instead be, or as well as, the screw at the switchboard.

If you don't believe me about loose screws, ask any sparkie that has worked on houses that are 10, or maybe 20 years old, and ask them if the screws are always tight on GPO's and switchboards.

Please play it safe guys. Electricity doesn't often take prisioners!

Cheers.

Originally Posted by azzrock

if you keep in mind not to use the welder full tilt. what would be the problem with using the 15amp welder in a 10 amp plug.

Ok for you, when you remember. But when you need full output, are you going to get a different machine, or just turn this one up?

And what about when you lend the machine out and forget to tell the borrower, not to use full power?

I'm thinking this is similar to lending someone your V8 powered car, but still using a straight 6 diff. One day, it will go bang!!

Cheers

Originally Posted by Marc

As far as recommending a small stick welder, my suggestion is to buy a large stick welder and a transformer not an inverter.

Small soon turns into ineffective and later into useless as you found out with your MIG welder. Transformer welders are cheap because they are last century technology. yet they work like a charm.
Stay well above 150 AMP possibly 200 AMP and stay clear of Chinese $45 machines.

I guess the tradeoff is the weight. But if it doesn't go out of your shed/shop, then I guess transformer welders are ok.

Are there any brands that stand out as being better, or are they all pretty much the same?

I'm just looking at hobby welding. Maybe, but rarely, up to 10 to 12 mm but in multiple passes. Doubt I could do it in one pass. Typical, as I see it, would be 3 to 6 mm.

Cheers

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Unimig,weldmaster and kemppi all have machines that come rated for and fitted with a 10amp plug
The kemppi is 110 amp and the other 2 are around 130 amp
No need to change anything just plug and play
expect to pay around a grand for the kemppi and anything between $300.00 and $400.00 for the other two

Originally Posted by dubman

Unimig,weldmaster and kemppi all have machines that come rated for and fitted with a 10amp plug

While I can't specifically comment on that, I have seen pressure washers offered on ebay fitted with 10 amp plugs when they legally should come with 15 amp plugs.

Makes it hard to know what's legal and what's not.

Cheers