Thread: GIS X or Raid Special

It's always good to learn from others and one French designer, Gilles Montaubin, has had his simple light weight plywood designs at the front of the Raid fleet for years. these designs include petit jean,Lili and also Wabi. His latest is Lili 6.10. Plans are very expensive though, as they are from most French designers, but it is always good to see how successful boats look.

http://www.chantiermer.com/projet.htm









very simple, very clean, very light, easily reefed by rotating the masts, water ballasted.

very close to what is in mind for a GISX larger raid boat.

Brian

Nice and simple, but a rig with with a jib flown from a mast doesn't grab me. You never see pictures of these boats on a run!

What's the problem down wind? wing and wing, using a jib stick?

Brian

It is a neat looking boat. But a boom is essential otherwise the main becomes a bag when you ease itit for a gust, and the sheeting loads of trimming it in in stronger winds will be like sheeting in a genoa.

MIK.

I think this is a boat laid out for a particular customer, and the design will normally have the mizzen a bit further back using a short bumpkin, and then teh main clears the mizzen and can use a boom.

Just put it up as an interesting lightweight successful design, surely proven winning designs should be looked at and thought. Perhaps the main dives great drive off the wind. Perhaps they luff higher in gusts as I do and gain ground upwind. Perhaps they ease the mizzen. These are winning designs!

Have a read about Wabi, the design which did so well in 2004 in Finland.





Brian

I like these boats - but plans of them are expensive!
Waiting for another Michael's designs.

Originally Posted by robhosailor

I like these boats - but plans of them are expensive!
Waiting for another Michael's designs.

Oh Rob, you know that plans are but a tiny percentage of the total cost of a build, and you'll get what you pay for! I'm all for pricey plans, especially of good designs if it will keep designers at work and attract new talent!

Mik's plans are such a steal for what you get, it's not even funny. His plans of some of his boats are easily worth double of what he asks, anyway, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by callsign222

Oh Rob, you know that plans are but a tiny percentage of the total cost of a build, and you'll get what you pay for! I'm all for pricey plans, especially of good designs if it will keep designers at work and attract new talent!

Mik's plans are such a steal for what you get, it's not even funny. His plans of some of his boats are easily worth double of what he asks, anyway, if you ask me.

Less is more...

Cheaper does not mean worse!

MIK's plans are very precise and clear, and his boats, performance, light and not expensive, but than unexpensive plans they are popular also.

I think the Raids are still at quite a primitve level compared to regular fleet racing.

With fleet racing you start to get an idea of relative performance because you know most boats are being sailed in a similar way iwth a similar level of commitment and are all similarly refined.

That's why I think our information sharing for the Goat is so important. I know the fleets that share that type of information improve rapidly against other classes.

One way on mixed fleet regattas is to see how boats of the same type tend to have finishing times that clump around a particular time. It is probably the only way to tell if one boat is faster than another.

So the RAID results are often from a committed sailor with a well sorted out boat, rather than there being something special about the boat.

I am interesting how there seems to be such a tendency toward bigger and more complicated boats rather than look at efficiency.

MIK

Just spent an enjoyable evening catching up on the last year or so of some of these threads. As for this thread, I was surprised/pleased to see my own boat (A Ness Boat) singled out early as an example of a suitable RAID boat, being a lighter, 16' version of the Caledonian Yawl. Had I been keeping up with the forum at that point I could have chipped in about its sailing characteristics, which I suppose would suit the sort of sailing I've seen in the Florida RAID youtube videos - it's seems to be more about staying awake, coping with bad weather and not getting stuck on mudflats. Before I read this thread I was actually thinking that a stretched version of the Hobie Tandem Island trimaran with storage would make a good RAID boat - speed with lightness, and scissoring amas to get through narrow checkpoints.

Regarding Ness Boat construction, there were a few comments about people being able to build a Storer but not an Oughtred design. While the amazing standard of workmanship in Iain's manual photos sometimes reduced me to glum reflections, and I haven't built one of Mik's designs yet (although I'm familiar with plenty of flat bottomed designs from the Church of the Latter Day Bolgers) I'm sure Mik would agree that anyone who can build one of his designs could also build one of Iain's lapstrake designs. The technique for shaping the curvy strakes isn't too hard to work out, thickened epoxy fixes most things, and once the hull is done you have all the same furniture, hardware and spar fabricating issues as any other boat.

I say this mainly to nip this particular meme in the bud, just in case one of the designs Mik is working on requires some Oughtred-ish stuff and he pays to much attention to the idea.

Regarding weight, I started with 100kg lead ballast as ingots on either side of the CB case, which definitely makes it too heavy to pull up on a beach single-handed. I tried no ballast for a while but found it a bit tender especially with the family on board - and settled on 50kg on the opposite side to the outboard which is out on a bracket.

The boat has yet to capsize in five years of sailing, despite being out in some interesting conditions, e.g: 25kts+ on Sydney Harbour and Pittwater with a 2m chop that reminded me of the shots from the bridge of the Aurora Australis as it falls off a wave on the way to Antarctica (in scale).A contributing factor to this is that I am a card-carrying early reefer, and the lugsail-yawl sailplan is fantastic for reefing - I can now muck around for minutes at the foot of the mast putting a reef with the mizzen in hard and the tiller centred in very gusty conditions without any concern.

And on another point brought up a while back in this thread, in Powell's "Cruising Guide to the Hawkesbury River" there is a little vignette about a tree snake that swims out to their anchored boat and attempts to climb up the warp several times: so while camping on board in Australia probably reduces the chance of encountering the wildlife, it's not guaranteed )

Cheers,
Robin

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I am interesting how there seems to be such a tendency toward bigger and more complicated boats rather than look at efficiency.MIK

This picture gives scale to this design. Looks very efficient to me MIK!



Has to be pretty close to ideal for a Raid boat and makes a great bench mark to design against. I love how the dagger boards, inclined and 4 degree toe in, mean the keel line has no slots so not jamming stones or mud in the centre slot, something that is a real problem at Keyhaven.

Brian

Hello Brian,

Lili 6.10 seems to be a really nice sail boat for making extensive trips. But I am very certain that it would loose tremendous time when under oars (too bulky, only one rowing station, hull is very wide at 200 cm forcing the crew to row side by side, also because the cockpit takes up the required space).

When the winds would be mostly favourable and you would only have to row for short distances, it may be a good choice (e.g. the Everglades Challenge, Raid England). If you have to row for long stretches (Raid Finland, Raid Caledonia, Shipyard Raid) I would for sure prefer his other boats Wabi or Lolita.

Just my opinion and it depends much on the raids/trips one wants to do. If performance under oars is somewhat important, I would personally look for another design.

Best regards,

Joost

Hi Joost

yes, was thinking more English Raid than rowing Raid. Pictures of 2010 Raid here, see if you can spot any oars

http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/...hraid&page=all

there is to be 2011 English Raid. Course is here,

English RAID 2011 - Google Maps

more extensive, challenging and I should think almost all sailing.

The cockpit layout is a special for the first owner who sail alone. I think Gilles is also drawing a mizzen further aft, thus clearing the cockpit completely. i think i like her because she reminds me of a very similar style boat!

Giles describes her as,

"Lili 6.10 marshals all my thoughts about coastal trekking onboard small boats. she has the slender hull of Wabi, with a double chine and a narrow sole. water line beam has been kept low enough to make her rowing speed as high as possible, without compromising static stability and sailing stiffness."

Her beam is in fact very close to Caledonia Yawl and slightly less than Swallow Boats BayRaider 20. There were a lot of them on the English Raid, so it would be fun to race them in a much cheaper boat. She only weighs 210kgs plus 110 kg water ballast.

I only posted her as a target for GSX!

Brian

Hello Brian,

I have been counting oars when following your link and looking at the pictures: 26 oars and 3 paddles in 116 pictures!

As you can tell, I am having a week off with some very bad weather (so far, let's hope it will get better soon).

Thank you for sending the link on the English Raid 2011 course. The new course is much longer than the 2010 one, isn't it? Do I understand correctly that in the 2010 one quite a few local scows were participating? Will they participate this time?

Best regards,

Joost