Thread: Can I use a wet dry vacume for cheap dust extraction.

Do a search for my name and vacuum cleaners and you will see a number of links involving testing of vacuum cleaners and their many problems in woodworking

To successfully collect fine dust from most woodworking machines dust ladened air needs to be removed from close to the source at the rate of about 1000 cubic feet per minute (CFM).
For something like a table saw about 800 cfm are needed to grab the dust from under the table and around 400 cfm are needed above the blade.
Vacuum cleaners with clean filters can only draw about 100 cfm so most of the fine dust will simply not have a hope of capturing the dust made at source.
After some use the fine dust will also clog the filters so the flow rate may only be half the starting flow rate or less.
The flow rates for vacuum cleaners are so low that it is not worth using them as fine dust dust scavengers after you finish using a machine.

Most vacuum cleaners eventually emit more fine dust than they collect because they mince up larger dust particles into finer ones which their filters cannot capture and emit a lot of dust from the motor cooling loop(s). To get around this a vacuum cleaner like any DC should really be located outside with only the collection hose inside the shed.
If this is not possible and you have a blower/vac then at least connect a second hose to the blower end and feed the end of that hose outside the shed.
By outside the shed I don't mean just outside the shed door or window but through a sealed opening in the shed wall apposite the door/window otherwise the fine dust will just be drawn back inside the shed.

So what can you do?.
Open up all the doors and windows and get yourself a mask - that's about all you can do.

Remember Bob hates vacuum cleaners.
Yes you can use a vacuum cleaner for dust extraction but there are limitations.

Its going to do bugger all connected to a 4 inch dust port, but it will work danm fine connected to routers and sanders that have small diameter dust ports.

Bob will tell ya that the filtration efficiency of many of the shop vacs is pretty poor.....but if ya up to ya armpits in well and truly visable dust and you can use ya own snot as wood filler.....
who gives a rats about INVISABLE DUST... ya better off than no extraction at all...especially if you have good ventilation or you put the vack outside.

cheers

Originally Posted by hellofellow

I have slowly come to have a small workshop down stairs now. The sawdust is building up steadily. I was in bunnings and saw all the wet dry Ryobi Vacs beside the dust extraction units.

Dont currently have much money to spare ( after buying a table saw).. but would love to know why you cant attach one of these 70$ wet drys to the extraction ports?

Cheers guys

A shop vac will do a very poor job on a machine like a Table Saw.

Vacs are low volume, high velocity. Dust collectors are high volume, lower velocity.

Vacs won't pull dust from much more than an inch or two from the nozzle. Dust collectors work by creating a large negative pressure "bubble" which sucks large volumes of air into the system. The bigger that bubble; the more air that is being sucked into the system, the better it works. This is one of those occasions where bigger is better (the more airflow, the better).

As Soundman says, a vac will do a good job with hand tools such as biscuit cutters and hand sanders, but they are pretty hopeless on large woodworking machines. Vacs are great fine dust producers (see Bob's comment). It is a very good idea to buy a vac from which you can ditch the filters, park it outside and run 50 mm PVC pipe into the shop to which you can connect the flexy. I use a 1600 W (2 HP) vac without filters ducted into the shop and am very happy with the result. Again, there are threads here giving the necessary detail.

A small dust collector (say around 1 HP) will collect most of the chips (depending on the port ... they are pretty hopeless with linishers, table saws and drop saws, for instance, but my 1 HP dusty worked reasonably well at collecting chips on the thicknesser) but will not do a good job of collecting the fine dust that damages our health. If you look around this site you will find threads from blokes who have already damaged their lungs and who are installing large, efficient systems so they can continue working with wood. Better to get ahead of the game as soon as you can.

The cheapest solution that works pretty well is a 2 HP system that has been optimised without ductwork but with a shortish length (say six feet) of 6 inch flexy that connects to the machine. If you are interested, look up BobL's thread on optimising a 2 HP dusty. Bob is our resident dust collection guru.

The best solution currently available for small shops is a ClearVue cyclone. (Steer clear of the Chinese units, they have old, less effective designs.) The 4 HP CV is more expensive than smaller units, of course, but the best nearly always are. If you are keen to protect your health the magic numbers are:
1. 4000 ft per minute velocity. This stops the ducts from clogging.
2. 1000 cu ft per minute volume at the working machine (not at the impeller). This provides enough airflow to catch the fine dust.
3. 6 inch ductwork/flexy. Any smaller and you choke airflow.
4. 6 inch ports on your machines, for the same reason.

It sounds as if you, like many others, are budget limited. In that case you might like to shop around for a second hand, good quality 2 HP system (Bob can advise you on which systems are superior). If you optimise it as per Bob's design and use 6 feet of flexy, you will do a pretty good job of catching both the chips and the fine dust at reasonably low cost. This solution is not as good as a CV (nothing else is), but it can be made to work pretty well and is several times less expensive.

It is wise to ignore the manufacturer's claims for airflow (cu ft per minute). They look like they are measured on a naked impeller (no ducting, bags, filters etc) running at 60 Hz (the US uses 60 Hz power, we use 50 Hz, so our machines spin slower). Most machines come with 4 inch ports. It is necessary to expand them to 6 inch to get the airflow you need (one six inch port equals close to three 4 inch ports). There are several threads here showing how others have done this.

You will occasionally find people who disagree with BobL's suggestions. Generally, I would back Bob. I upgraded my system a bit over a year ago, and his advice was invaluable.

Finally if you are keen to dig into the subject and learn what works, and why, go to Bill Pentz's site Dust Collection Research - Home

Excellent summary John, puts it all in perspective

Originally Posted by John Samuel

A shop vac will do a very poor job on a machine like a Table Saw..............

and


..................It sounds as if you, like many others, are budget limited.

Whilst it's not as effective as a full blown cyclone and ducting to his machine, it can be used as a whole generation of Triton users will attest. The original Triton dust bucket system,adapted to a mini cyclone, or similar will do a decent job in this particular case as the OP is looking at say a $100 expense and not mortgaging his house for a $4000 job.

All this talk of Clearvue cyclones, when it is clearly out of the OP finances is a thorough waste of time and effort and is not answering the question.

To me this seems like the Clearvue Messiahs are confusing the issue.


Peter.

Originally Posted by hellofellow

I have slowly come to have a small workshop down stairs now. The sawdust is building up steadily. I was in bunnings and saw all the wet dry Ryobi Vacs beside the dust extraction units.

Dont currently have much money to spare ( after buying a table saw).. but would love to know why you cant attach one of these 70$ wet drys to the extraction ports?

Cheers guys

Can you give us some details or pics of your tablesaw (and other machines if you have any), so we can help you nut out the best way to hook a vac up. In the spirit of 'something is better than nothing', there are a number of options/solutions when limited to a shop vac, but more info regarding your workshop would be handy.

Craig

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Whilst it's not as effective as a full blown cyclone and ducting to his machine, it can be used as a whole generation of Triton users will attest. The original Triton dust bucket system,adapted to a mini cyclone, or similar will do a decent job in this particular case as the OP is looking at say a $100 expense and not mortgaging his house for a $4000 job.

All this talk of Clearvue cyclones, when it is clearly out of the OP finances is a thorough waste of time and effort and is not answering the question.

To me this seems like the Clearvue Messiahs are confusing the issue.


Peter.

And I thought I had set out the available options and recommended a CV if the budget allowed and an optimised 2 HP system if it did not. For a very reasonable cost an optimised 2 HP dusty will outperform any vac by wide margin when servicing larger machines ... but apparently I did not answer the question.

See https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/g...47/index4.html for details on the optimised 2 HP dusty.

It seems that even mentioning the ClearVue is becoming a crime in some minds. If so, I will remain a criminal, but I appreciate not everyone has a budget that will stretch to a CV. That is why I thought Bob's optimised 2 HP system was such a great idea. Leda sells new 2 HP systems from $350-550. A second hand unit will be far cheaper. Bob's modifications lift airflow appreciably, so that those who want decent airflow at a reasonable cost can now do so.

I wonder how many of us realise Bob did not really need an optimised 2 HP extractor. He has a 3 HP ducted system in his shed and was experimenting to see how good a generic 2 HP unit could become. He published his work so that many others could benefit from a decent system without spending a bunch of loot. Yet he and I (and others) get criticised if we mention CV.

Just so I can be sure to answer the question, here goes.

The best system available is a ClearVue. It will cost about $2,250, plus ducting etc. My installation cost about $3,500. It can be done for several hundred dollars less if you make your own fittings blast gates etc, some do.

If you want a ducted system (I did, but others do not) the smallest system that will do the job effectively (capture most of the fine dust) is a 3 HP dusty.

If you don't want or don't have the budget for a ducted system, an optimised 2 HP system gives pretty good results.

A shop vac (or a 1 HP dusty) will not capture the fine dust that damages our health, and I cannot recommend it for larger machines. Of course, if you are not concerned about fine dust, do whatever pleases you.

I have a Shop Vac vacuum cleaner and as a dust extractor, it makes a great vacuum cleaner.

It's only good for vacuuming the floor or bench long after you've cut something. Attaching it to a tool in use is a total waste of time and only gets in the way.
I do have a cyclone (Dust Deputy) fitted to it but the only advantage that that gives is that I use less bags in the vacuum cleaner.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

It seems that even mentioning the ClearVue is becoming a crime in some minds.

It's not a crime mentioning a CV system but the insistence that it's the only solution to every dust problem is IMO ridiculous and only advocated by the born again Messiah's on dust control.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

The best system available is a ClearVue. It will cost about $2,250, plus ducting etc. My installation cost about $3,500. It can be done for several hundred dollars less if you make your own fittings blast gates etc, some do.

It may well be, although I'm not convinced, and I think your costing may be at the conservative side for the CV Max retails for $2550, but accepting your costings the OP in his question stated that he was looking at a wet dry Ryobi Vac which cost $ 78 from Bunnings. That's only 2 % of your outlay so why do you think the OP can outlay larger amounts for your better systems.

I don't think it's helpful to tell him to buy a CV system or even an optimized DC when he is asking help with a vac and that practical advice on what he could do to minimize the dust, that he can afford, would be better. I think he should look at the Triton forum and search the past for their affordable solution to help him.


Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

It's not a crime mentioning a CV system but the insistence that it's the only solution to every dust problem is IMO ridiculous and only advocated by the born again Messiah's on dust control.




It may well be, although I'm not convinced, and I think your costing may be at the conservative side for the CV Max retails for $2550, but accepting your costings the OP in his question stated that he was looking at a wet dry Ryobi Vac which cost $ 78 from Bunnings. That's only 2 % of your outlay so why do you think the OP can outlay larger amounts for your better systems.

I don't think it's helpful to tell him to buy a CV system or even an optimized DC when he is asking help with a vac and that practical advice on what he could do to minimize the dust, that he can afford, would be better. I think he should look at the Triton forum and search the past for their affordable solution to help him.


Peter.

So now I am a born again Messiah on dust patrol ... to add to my failure to answer questions.

Do you always try to offend people who offer comment or advice, or only CV Messiah's? Feel free to disagree; I do; robust debate is healthy; but is it really necessary to sink the slipper with name-calling?

I too have used a Triton with a Vac; a mate had one. It was the only woodworking machine he had, apart from powered hand tools. His entire shed was soon covered in fine dust. That's why I can't recommend a vac for a table saw. Anyone who is happy to do the best possible job with a vac is free to do so, and I am free to suggest that looking after our health ought be a priority, if at all possible. There is no obligation on any of us. We are all free to accept or reject advice posted here; to agree; to disagree, and even to agree to disagree. Let's do the latter for now.

Originally Posted by CMB

Over to you CMB. Your shop ... your call. If you come up with any interesting solutions, please post them.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Over to you CMB. Your shop ... your call. If you come up with any interesting solutions, please post them.

Can't help but find it amusing how far the conversation has strayed from the initial query.

I made an earlier post requesting more info from hellofellow in order hopefully offer some suggestions relevant to his intentions.

Granted, dust control is important if we wish to protect our health, but I have been in the building/joinery industries for twenty plus years and have yet to see a commercial workshop/site that met the ideal dust control scenario. Some people may be more susceptible to wood dust than others, but the industry has been around a lot longer than items such as DC's and the CV. Wonderful and wise inventions, but not the be all and end all. I'm confident that thousands of happily and healthily retired tradies would agree.

Your knowledge is appreciated John (and BobL's, etc, etc.), but hellofellow's query was "would love to know why you cant attach one of these 70$ wet drys to the extraction ports". I'm sure we can agree that there are endless better options, however, as inefficient as it may be, a wet/dry could actually be attached.

I now hope that hellofellow isn't put off by the hoo-ha and returns to the discussion.

Craig

Don't worry I was not put off by the discussion, just had not checked in a couple of days.

Thanks for so many replies. I did not know what I was getting into. Dust extraction alone is harder than learning woodwork. I definitely cannot afford a dust extraction unit unfortunately.

So it sounds like a goood dust mask to catch the fine dust and a shop vac to get the larger pieces will have to do for now.

I could stretch to the little $150 1000watt ( not sure how many HP??) dust extractor at Bunnings I would say.

What would you guys say to this in comparison to a shop vac?

In terms of my setup: a metabo TS254 site saw.

Triton router ( soon to be on a kreg table I hope)

Carbatec thicknesser

Pretty simple so far hey, the sanders are a belt and random
Orbital hand held.