Thread: Bench Restoration

Some pics of the joints and other parts would help.
Regards
John

My first thought is that if the leg joints failed, it's probably due to poor construction more than the fault of the glue. Sloppy joints are highly likely to fail, whatever glue you use, particularly on a workbench. However, as orraloon sez, pics would help, so if you can show us the problem spots, the collective wisdom will no doubt deliver plenty of suggestions for you . I would certainly be looking to re-use as much of the wood as possible. It's not a lot of fun working old, bone-hard wood, particularly if you only have hand tools, but the resulting bench should be stable & solid & worth the pain.....

Cheers,

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the absence of pics and now the poor quality of pics. Just used the phone. Will try to add more/better photos tonight.

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I took these to show the timber but the colour is not true to life. They show the through mortice which takes a wedged tennon on the stretchers. There is a pronounced hollow on the walls of these but I suppose that's not a big problem. I've gone ahead and put one leg assembly back together using epoxy and draw boring. The main reason I added the draw bore pegs was to stop the rotation of the tennon because it's open on the side meaning the mortice only has two long sides and one short side the other side is open and I thought that might allow the joint to move particularly given the poor fitting of the joint. I know, i know, pics...

This bench also had a gutter along its length which I was to fill with timber which I haven't sourced yet. Checked the big hardware stores and got some sticker shock. It'd be great to match the timber species but not too worried. Might even be better to get something not so difficult to work. My Idea is to route square bench dog holes before assembling.

For the vice, i have a number 9 (i think) dawn quick release, but I'm thinking I might go for a twin screw with a home made chain drive or a leg vice using a screw off an old black smith's leg vice that I have (its a bit short though). I'll worry about the vise later, just want to get it flat and stable and maybe add storage underneath first.

Originally Posted by mawhins

.... the through mortice which takes a wedged tennon on the stretchers. There is a pronounced hollow on the walls of these but I suppose that's not a big problem. I've gone ahead and put one leg assembly back together using epoxy and draw boring. The main reason I added the draw bore pegs was to stop the rotation of the tennon because it's open on the side meaning the mortice only has two long sides and one short side the other side is open and I thought that might allow the joint to move particularly given the poor fitting of the joint. I know, i know, pics....

The stretcher mortices don't need to be particularly tight, they will work just fine if the shoulders are pulled up firmly against the leg when you drive in the wedge. Wedged tenons look the part on a bench, I reckon, and they don't require too much finesse in the making, so I think you'll sort those out ok.

BTW, I think the term for an 'open mortise' as you describe it, is a 'slip-joint', aka a 'bridle joint' in North America. They are pretty strong if well-made, but a peg or two can't hurt.

Originally Posted by mawhins

....For the vice, i have a number 9 (i think) dawn quick release, but I'm thinking I might go for a twin screw with a home made chain drive or a leg vice using a screw off an old black smith's leg vice that I have (its a bit short though). I'll worry about the vise later, just want to get it flat and stable and maybe add storage underneath first...

I'd decide on what sort of vise I was going to use before I went too far into the re-build, because it can influence the construction, e.g., whether you have an apron on the front (could make mounting the Dawn awkward), or keep the top edge flush with the legs to suit the leg vise, etc. I'd be inclined to use the QR vise somewhere - you've got it, & they certainly are handy at times. Nothing wrong with having a QR on the left and a twin-screw on the right (or on the end), either. You are talking about routing dog holes, so presumably you are intending to have some kind of tail vise or travelling dog on the right end (I'm assuming you are right-handed, but just reverse L & R if you're a southpaw...)? The Dawn could be mounted on the end, with a fat wooden insert for the moving jaw, to take a couple of dog holes and be the tail-vise.

Take a look at the threads on benches & vises if you want to be overwhelmed by different ideas.

Lots of choices to ponder..
Cheers,

Thanks Ian. I hear you on the vise choice and I really like the idea of using the QR as the tail vise. I was going to try and DIY a wagon vise (I think that's what they're called) but your suggestion is much easier. I think I'll go with that. Now just have to decide between twin screw or leg vise. I'm leaning toward twin screw. I'm pretty confident I can weld bike sprockets to the $43 screws from Carbatec and join them with a bike chain inside the chop. If I go with a leg vice I was thinking of building my own criss-cross thing-a-ma-jig like the benchcrafted one. So either way there will be dodgy DIY involved. I'm too tight to spring $369 for the veritas twin screw and I don't even know if you can benchcrafted gear in Australia.

Here are a couple of photos showing the slip-joints, the size of gap I'm dealing with and the result of pegs and re-glueing. I hit the joint with the belt sander at 80 grit after having put raw linseed oil (thought it was boiled) and the sawdust was gluggy and the surface was nasty, all fluffy. Hoping a further sand with finer grit and random orbit sander will fix. You really have to be careful with a belt sander at 80 grit. Very easy to gouge large valleys into the timber!

The pics also show that the mortice is bellied out. Looks like someone before has lined one of the mortices with ply to fit the tennon. Not sure what I'll do here.


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Those ply shims are a quite good way to get a tight fit. The shims can be made of any scrap wood you have about the place. Better to fill space in a joint with wood than glue.
I used a spare vice I had to make an end vice and made a wood dog for it. The dog sits flush when not in use and by turning it around it sits up.
I prefer it to those metal dogs that some vices are fitted with.
Regards
John

Yeah, John's vise shows the general idea. I'm a traditional tail-vise enthusiast, & I'd have to have a long think about how I'd do it if I were to use a QR vise as the tail-vise. This is because there are many times when you want to be able to clamp your work close to the edge of the bench - e.g., so a fence can clear the bench top. So it's handy to have the front row of dogs close to the edge. However, that means mounting the QR very close to the edge, or even protruding a bit, to achieve that, & have the dog in the middle of the chop so it doesn't slew the vise. An alternative is to put two dogs in the chop, close to each side, and have two rows of dog-holes on the bench. You can then use it to hold wider boards more firmly. To stop the vise slewing when you only want to use the front row, you could keep a series of short boards handy, & slip them in on the opposite side. That may be more of a pita than it's worth, but having two rows of dogs would be nice on many occasions....

Cheers,

I have 2 rows of dogs on the bench and the vice dog lines up between them. Narrow boards that dont span 2 dogs then I lay a bit of wood across the 2 dogs on the bench. On my old bench I retro fitted a row of round dogs and the end of a wood clamp on the end. I found a single row of round dogs not as secure as I expected when force was applied side on so that is why I went for 2 rows. Being close to the front of the bench is a plus. My 2 and 1 system has done what I need so far but if needs must it would not be a big job to fit another jaw with 2 dog holes in it. Mind you with 1 center dog the vice is never going to wrack.
Regards
John

That sounds pretty good to me John. How far apart are the rows of dogs in your bench?

About 6'' apart so front row about 3'' from edge of bench. The vice dog is 6'' in from the front edge of the bench. This works for me but have a good think about what you want to clamp on the bench before you go ahead. I made use of a vice I had around so no cost involved but I do like the idea of a traditional tail vice. One day perhaps.
Trouble is you think you will build the ultimate bench that will do just what you want but in a short space of time you are thinking of improvements. It never ends but thats part of the fun.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

.......Trouble is you think you will build the ultimate bench that will do just what you want but in a short space of time you are thinking of improvements. It never ends but thats part of the fun...

Well, you do get a little closer to perfection with each build, John....

When I made the bench I use now, it was about my 3rd attempt at a 'proper' w'working bench & I swore it was definitely & absolutely, the last bench I was ever going to make. That prediction was dead wrong, because I have made, or helped to make, quite a few similar benches for others - about 7 or 8, in fact. But it was the last bench I've made for myself, for 30 years. In that time, it has had a couple of features added, like a few round dog holes at strategic locations, and a couple of years ago, I rebuilt the tail vise in order to add a couple of extra dog-slots I should've incorporated at the beginning, but the modifications have been relatively minor in functional terms. My bench has only one shortcoming for my purposes, & that is, I can't quite get a 2m board between the front dogs. Because of that, I have always said I'm going to make a slightly longer bench (which would incorporate a few other minor modifications I would might find useful), but since I've only wanted the extra clamping-length about 3 times in 30 years, and I was able to work around the problem fairly easily, the pressure to make another is very slight. It's looking more & more like this bench might see me out...

However, the essence of what John says is very true - you need to make at least one 'serious' bench, & use it a while, before you begin to know what you really want....

Cheers,

Well I haven't many any real progress on the bench but I have picked up some timber to use from a demolition site. Some of it is hard hardwood and some seems to be Hemlock according to a member in the Timber forum. I've been procuring the parts for the twin screw vice. I have the screws from Carbatec and I now have the axial needle roller bearings and washers, bushes are on order and I'm trying to find sprockets. Most places only have pilot bored sprockets which would be a pain for me to use as I'd have to bore it using my drill press and then make the keyway by hand with a file which would suck. Its bad enough that I'm going to have to make the slot in the screw for the key by hand (i'm not exactly sure how I'm going to do that!). Maybe I could get away with just set screws buried into holes in the screw. I really want a 1/2" pitch #40 sprocket so I can use a cheap bike chain. You can get them bored to size in america but haven't found any australian suppliers yet.

Originally Posted by mawhins

..... I have picked up some timber to use from a demolition site. Some of it is hard hardwood and some seems to be Hemlock according to a member in the Timber forum.....

Hmm, Hemlock is a softwood and I doubt the wood you showed in your post in the Timber section is a softwood. I could easily be wrong, identifying wood from a picture is a very fraught business! The second pic looks to me more like a hardwood - possibly Mountain Ash, some of which can be quite light. Hemlocks (Tsuga spp.) tend to have a medium density for a softwood (0.5 according to the Wood Database), so the two could overlap on that property. Of course it probably matters not at all what it is, as long as it's firm enough for your purpose...

Cheers.